issue5
EMUSIC-L Digest Volume 8, Number 5
Today's Topics:
WX11/WT11 (2 messages)
Performer and Apple MIDI Manager
Roland U-20
on the U-20 (and the Xk too, actually) (2 messages)
A tale of woe, alas, alackaday
Xk woes
Tapes?
Korg DSS-1 (4 messages)
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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 89 10:20:37 EDT
From: DAVID@PENNDRLS
Subject: WX11/WT11
I've been a subscriber to EMUSIC-D, content to be a passive absorber of
information, since I'm fascinated by MIDI and synthesizers but have no
experience with them. Now I'm thinking of buying one, so I'd like to try
to take advantage of the net's knowledge to inform my decision.
I'm a wind player, so I'm looking at wind controllers. My girlfreind
has an SG1 sampling keyboard, but that's as close as I've gotten to
MIDI so far. I'm looking at the Yamaha WX11/WT11, since I need both
the wind controller and the synth. The dealer has quoted $800. I can't
afford to go much higher right now. (Later I will doubtless add
pieces to my setup.) So, given that I want to play a wind controller
and need a complete performance setup (less amp; I'll plug into the
sound system), is the WX11/WT11 sufficient? Are there any other wind
synths I should look at before buying? Any opinions on how the WT11
sounds (I'm looking initially for accurate reproduction)?
Thanks for any help you can give me.
-- R. David Murray (DAVID@PENNDRLS.BITNET, DAVID@PENNDRLS.UPENN.EDU)
P.S.: I searched the data base and found a couple questions about the
WX7 but no answers. Does this mean there are no wind synth players
out there?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 89 16:26:41 EDT
From: DAVID@PENNDRLS
Subject: Wind controllers
I sent a message a couple days ago noting that I am looking to buy
a wind controller and synth and asking for opinions, especially
about the WX11/WT11. I've gotten two responses so far.
Mario Vergona hasn't used the WX11/WT11 but recommends a
book, Expressive FM Applications by Sal Gallina, published by YAMAHA,
that he says teaches the programming methods for the DX7 and TX81z and
comes with a tape that contains a bunch of patches that are real useful
for the WX7. He also notes that I ought to be able to get a TX81z for
<=$250.
says:
>Well, this is just one person's reaction ... I didn't like the beast.
>Far too little real flexibility, for my taste. The lip action was
>primitive, compared to any real reed; the polyphony was uninteresting
>compared to any polyphonic keyboard. The tones were rehashes of dozens
>of synthetic ones.
I tried the WX11/WT11 out in the store. I agree pretty wholeheartedly
with STEARNS. I'm not giving up yet, though.
The salesman reports that the WT11 is basically a reworked TX81z, which
YAMAHA is no longer making. They have already sold the last ones they
had at a $250 sale price. When I didn't like the sound of the WT11
he suggested trying the WX7 (which he thinks is the better of the
two controllers) with a Kawi K1. So we did that. Unfortunately,
the store unit did not have any straight wind samples loaded.
My girlfriend had this same problem when we went looking for a keyboard.
The stores are all oriented toward what I will call, if you will
excuse the term 'glitz' sounds. These synthetic sounds are fun, and
I wouldn't mind using them once in a while, but I agree with STEARNS,
who said in his note to me that he thinks sounds may be getting overused,
and "are becoming something of a source of boredom even as they try
to be startlingly new".
After looking for a while, we finally found the SG1, with its full note
range sampling of a real piano. It is more than a glorified tape
recorder since you can get expressive with the notes once you get used
to the keyboard. Its main attraction, though, is that it is a heck
of lot more portable than the grand piano whose sound it is based on.
Now, portability does not seem like an issue when you are talking about
wind instruments, but actually it is. If I can have one box (well, two
boxes: the synth and the controller) that produces sounds recognizably
similar to ten different wind instruments, that is a lot easier to
carry around than all ten instruments. Not to mention the fact that
it may be cheaper, and that I don't know how to *play* all ten of
those instruments.
So, I'm willing to sacrifice some of the flexability the real instruments
would have, and even some of the sound quality, in order to have
variety in a box. Some tunes just cry out for a touch of brass, or
oboe, or even pan-pipe, but I don't want them that often that I want
to buy the instruments and learn how to use them. (Well, maybe
someday....) Besides, used at the right time, a little astral
chorus or space dust can be quite affective (sic) . . .
Anyway, enough rambling. I do have some more questions for the list.
Is the Kawi K1 any good? The salesman told me it has 256 samples built
in, and that these can be edited. (He also said that no more could
be added, despite the little card slot it has. This sounds wrong to
me. Anyone know?) Anyone know if the basic samples sound or can be
made to sound enough like the real thing to pass a *casual* aural
inspection? As I said, I'm not expecting perfection, but something
more like their namesakes than the patches in the WT11 would be nice.
Basically I'd like somebody hearing it without knowing it was a synth
react with, 'oh, yes, that's a clarinet.' They might then add,
'it sounds a little funny', but I want it to be reconizable.
What other synths or samplers or what-have-yous should I look at?
I can't spend $2000, but I could go a little higher than the $800 the
WX11/WT11 or WX7/K1 combinations have been quoted at.
Also, I've read the MIDI tutorials (thanks! things are a whole lot
clearer now), but don't have a real clear picture what signals
a wind controller puts out or how these signals can be tied to
changing the sound. Would anyone be willing to explain this stuff
to me or point me to a good book on the subject? I'm curious about
things like, can I program a synth to recognize breath and/or lip
control as a control on the...attack?...of the sound or does it
burst forth with the same...dynamic profile?...regardless of what
my breath is doing? As you can see, I don't even know the right
terms....I guess I really need a pointer to a basic text of some
sort.
-- R. David Murray (DAVID@PENNDRLS.BITNET, DAVID@PENNDRLS.UPENN.EDU)
P.S.: Thanks Mario and STEARNS for taking the time to answer me.
Sorry I didn't reply direct but I haven't had time. Hope it's OK I
quoted without asking you first . . .
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 89 08:29:11 EDT
From: Nick Rothwell
Subject: Performer and Apple MIDI Manager
I'm waiting for a copy of Apple's MIDI manager which is in the post to
me at this very moment.
Now: are there any more Performer users out there? I've just heard
from USEnet (so it *must* be true, right?) that MOTU aren't making any
comments about MIDI Manager support at all, and their tech. support guys
don't know anything about this. I'm going to call MOTU trans-Atlantic to
lobby them about this. I would urge other Performer users to do the same.
MIDI Manager is an important step forward in the Mac world, and it's
pretty grim that one of the top MIDI software houses isn't moving fast
on this one.
We now return you to your scheduled transmission.
Nick.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 89 11:25:00 EDT
From: a Pirate twin
Subject: Roland U-20
I just had the opportunity to listen to a demo of the new Roland U-20 - wow! I
am extremely impressed, at least at first listen, with this board. Has anyone
purchase one yet (apparently they're Roland's top seller in Canada right now)?
I am seriously considering this board to replace my drum machine (old reliable
but not so hot anymore RX11) and add to my setup. The grand piano is killer!
I'm wondering what it's usefulness as a controller is, as I have an opportunity
to get rid of my Oberhiem xK in the deal as well. Any comments?
-brian
(... another terrifying example of the Reindeer Effect!)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 89 15:13:00 EST
From: METLAY@PITTVMS
Subject: on the U-20 (and the Xk too, actually)
Brian:
Maybe you can answer the burning question a lot of us have: did Roland get
rid of that awful noise in the sounds on the U-110? They're really of poor
quality, and supposedly the problem was hardware-fixable and implemented
on the U-20, but that's just a rumor I heard from somewhere....
And on the Xk, how are you getting rid of yours, and why? (I wondered if other
people had come up with reasons of their own to add to my long list....|-< )
More on that in another posting (to follow almost immediately).
rahashishi,
******
metlay (the "m.m." stands for | Analog synthesis survives and thrives in
"my moniker's") | a digital world because there are those who
metlay@pittvms.BITNET | believe in fighting for what they love, even
metlay@vms.cis.pitt.EDU | at the risk of appearing (gasp!) antiquated.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 89 16:58:00 EDT
From: a Pirate twin
Subject: RE: on the U-20 (and the Xk too, actually)
>Brian:
>
>Maybe you can answer the burning question a lot of us have: did Roland get
>rid of that awful noise in the sounds on the U-110? They're really of poor
>quality, and supposedly the problem was hardware-fixable and implemented
>on the U-20, but that's just a rumor I heard from somewhere....
Sorry, I've not kept up on the new Roland stuff (til yesterday), but the U-20 I
listened too was very clean.
>And on the Xk, how are you getting rid of yours, and why? (I wondered if other
>people had come up with reasons of their own to add to my long list....|-< )
I actually like my xK, most of the time. Lately I've had problems using it
with my S950 (like bending a note and note returning to the original pitch),
but I'm not sure if it's the xK or the Akai. My main reason for getting rid of
it would be to finance the acquisition of a new board, especially if I can do
MIDI controller functions with it (such as the U-20, so I've heard). I've just
purchased a house, so I could have room for a studio ... now I can't afford to
put the equipment in! My first xk, however, blew up. It was replaced by the
fellow I purchased it from and the second was OK. I am a bit nervous about it,
however, because my buddy's music store has bitten the big one and I don't know
if he will support me anymore. My friendly Roland dealer is going to offer me
some cash, so why not?!
-brian
(... another terrifying example of the Reindeer Effect!)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 89 14:25:00 PDT
From: Willis Dair
Subject: RE: on the U-20 (and the Xk too, actually)
YES!!! The noise is gone! With earphones on I hated listening to the
U-110. With earphones on the U-20, the sound it clean. The distortion
in the mallet sounds (marimba and vibes) from the noise is also gone.
Roland called this box RS-PCM, where RS is for re-sythesis (yea, the
newest buzz word in the synth industry). I saw this on another newsgroup,
but I also agreed with the post-er-- look for the power electric guitar
sound. It is dynamite! The sound in general from the U-20 is excellent.
Willis Dair
Systems Programmer
Academic Computing Center
Santa Clara University
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 89 16:19:00 EST
From: METLAY@PITTVMS
Subject: A tale of woe, alas, alackaday
Hello all.
As promised, here's a post on a number of topics, including equipment
reliability, obsolescence, the restriction of one's musical vision by
technology, and just plain stupidity....
A long time ago, about mid-1986 as I remember, Oberheim released a keyboard
controller for their well-beloved synth the Xpander, called the Xk. It was a
lovely little device, having the ability to split and layer three different
synths, with "spillover" of notes to three more synths. It could remap its two
springloaded levers, slider, and footswitch to a different MIDI value for
every zone, and its nifty little arpeggiator could sync to outside pulses,
even if they were syncopated. In my ideal setup, this keyboard would
synchronize my two Xpanders as a 12-voice instrument to the rimshot pulses out
of my TR707, and by judicious application of splits and layers I could have a
12-voice polyphonic synth with simultaneous hand-played notes, arpeggiation
and sequencing, all with that glorious Oberheim sound I'm constantly ragging
on Nick for not having the guts to sell the rest of his studio and buy |-> .
It looks great on paper, doesn't it? Well, it worked well in practice, too,
until the Xk died. And was fixed. And died again. And was fixed again. And
died again. And was replaced. And died. And was fixed, tweaked, and partially
updated with the many ECOs that began pouring out of Oberheim at about this
time. And died anyway. And was totally, completely fixed at last. And lasted
about six months, then died again, and (this time) is sitting on a workbench
in Oberheim's factory in California, with Tom Dunn himself scratching his head
and wishing that the damn thing had never been released. It was, in short, a
lemon.
I don't blame my dealer: he took the loss of giving me a new unit with a new
warranty. I blame Oberheim, but not for anything worse than not doublechecking
what kind of re-engineering their Japanese factory (which they haven't used
for over a year, for ANYTHING, interestingly enough) had done on production
models, which is forgiveable considering the corporate reorganization they
were undergoing at the time, and besides they did offer all mods and repairs
for free, and everyone's entitled to make a mistake, right? Laying blame won't
help. The problem is, my studio's essentially crippled until:
(a) The Xk comes back working beautifully and never acts up again
(and if you believe that, I have this bridge I'd like to sell you)
(b) I buy a new master keyboard and everything else I need to replace the Xk
(a huge investment, as the Xk does things few other boards can do)
(c) I wise up and clear out time in my schedule to make contingency plans
(naah, too sensible)
So what's a guy to do? Why, bore EMUSIC-L to death with his tale of woe, of
course!
So I'd like to dredge some worthwhile stuff out of this mess, to encourage
discussion and maybe help someone else in the same boat, with some random
thoughts and questions:
1. MORAL: Design your studio around algorithms, not particular items! I've
learned my lesson now, but good, and as much as I love my various gear, I now
know damn well that I could make perfectly worthwhile music without my Xk, my
Cyclone, my Korg, or even (gasp!) my Xpanders.
2. COMMENT: This is a good reason to pay 10% or so extra and patronize your
local full-service music store instead of saving money and going with Sam Ash
or someone like that. If I'd gotten my Xk from there, they never would have
offered to replace it, a move which got me through some critical sessions at
the time.
3. QUERY: Has anyone else ever had stuff like this happen to them? Stupidity
loves company, I guess....
4. GEARHEAD QUESTION: What device, or combination of devices, would be
required to completely replace an Xk, which has:
-three overlapping or split Zones on the keyboard, each with its own patch
number, transpose value, MIDI mono on/off, controller numbers for the two
levers, slider and footswitch, levers on/off, selectable note spillover (play
up to n notes on channel x, the next note goes to x+1) and arpeggiator enable
-61 key velocity/pressure/release velocity sensitive keyboard
-two levers, one a reversible pitch bender, the other a bidirectional modwheel
-a slider and a footswitch, both assignable
-100 setups of all parameters
-adjustable pressure and velocity sensitivities
-an arpeggiator that can arpeggiate in forward, reverse, back-and-forth, or
random key order, follow notes under keys, the hold button, or both, and can
sync to an external pulse generator at one step per pulse
-chord memory and key lock controls
I'm leaving out the Oberheim SysEx it can transmit on command, as that's
really not fair, although the Roland A80 and A50 can supposedly do stuff like
that if programmed properly.
How small a setup can you get to do at least this much? The Kurzweil MIDIboard
comes close, but it can't transmit the first six notes of polyphony on one
MIDI channel and "spill over" the next note to the next MIDI channel. My best
bet so far is the Kawai K4 with a Systemizer and a Cyclone outboard, an
investment of over $1900 retail, and there aren't enough left-hand
controllers. Nobody else has release velocity. The Oberheim Eclipse doesn't
count, as it's vaporware until they hit the stores. Any other suggestions?
I'm looking forward to people's comments and input.
gaggeegah,
******
metlay | METLAY MISQUOTE OF THE MONTH:
****** | I have definitely transcended my area of
metlay@pittvms.BITNET | omniscience.
metlay@vms.cis.pitt.EDU | --C.M. Vincent
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 89 09:58:00 EST
From: METLAY@PITTVMS
Subject: Xk woes
Brian:
It's the Xk. The lock washers on the pitch wheel have worked loose and need
to be retightened. Oberheim ECO 1002 tells you how to fix it yourself; all
you need is a couple of 11mm lock washers, a wrench, and an ohmmeter. This
is one of many bad design faults that plague the Xk; if you aren't relying
on it the way I am, and you can get cash for it, dump it NOW!
other problems to look for: random memory loss, audio hum from instruments
connected to it (due to improper MIDI jack grounding), crashes and lockups
when powering up.
good luck,
metlay
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 89 10:23:21 EDT
From: Joe McMahon
Subject: Tapes?
Anybody gotten their copy of the tape yet?
--- Joe M.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 89 12:19:08 CDT
From: Eddie Mikell
Subject: Korg DSS-1
I have been looking for a sampler lately, and have come across a
Korg DSS-1.
I believe Korg has discontinued this unit, but haven't been able to
get in touch with anyone at Korg to confirm this.
I would like comments about this unit before I buy it. Is it a decent
sampler? What about the availability of sounds? Is the keyboard
any good or does it play like pushing pennies across a plastic plate?
I can buy this unit for $895. Is this a fair deal or should I dicker some
more. Would the Mirage be a better buy at $595?
Thanks, thanks and more thanks!
Eddie H. Mikell
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 89 14:14:18 EDT
From: Jeffrey R Kell
Subject: Re: Korg DSS-1
31 Aug 89 12:19:08 CDT from
On Thu, 31 Aug 89 12:19:08 CDT Eddie Mikell said:
>Korg DSS-1.
>I believe Korg has discontinued this unit, but haven't been able to
>get in touch with anyone at Korg to confirm this.
I have heard this also, but not sure either.
>I would like comments about this unit before I buy it. Is it a decent
>sampler? What about the availability of sounds? Is the keyboard
>any good or does it play like pushing pennies across a plastic plate?
I have one and like it very much; it will sample at 48Khz at 14-bit
resolution -- one of the best under 5-figure-pricetags. There were only
four factory disks (each with 4 'systems' of 32 patches) when I got mine
but that was right after their release. There were 12-16 or so available
later. The keyboard is good, and both velocity and aftertouch sensitive.
It also does very decent analog sounds by providing several waveforms as
samples you can mix/filter/modulate/play with; it reproduces most of the
DW6000 sounds. Bad points: takes awhile to load, samples eat up memory
like crazy at high resolution, sampling mechanics are a little complex to
learn and work with.
>I can buy this unit for $895. Is this a fair deal or should I dicker some
>more. Would the Mirage be a better buy at $595?
Oh hell no. The Mirage has lots of (mediocre quality) samples available,
but its otherwise a rag. If you found a cheap rackmount one it might be
tolerable. If you don't mind possibly discontinued equipment, grab the
DSS-1 (they originally retailed around $2500).
If you have any other specific questions mail me directly.
******************************
* A bird in the hand is safer than one over the head.
******************************
+-----------------------------------+----------------------------------+
| Jeffrey R Kell, Dir Tech Services | UTC Postmaster/Listserv co-ord. |
| Admin Computing, 117 Hunter Hall |Bitnet: JEFF@UTCVM.BITNET |
| Univ of Tennessee at Chattanooga |JEFF%UTCVM.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU |
| Chattanooga, TN 37403 | Bell: (615)-755-4551 |
+-----------------------------------+----------------------------------+
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 89 15:07:00 EST
From: METLAY@PITTVMS
Subject: DSS-1
If you can dicker, do so, but even at $895 I consider this a good deal.
I'm a big synth fanatic, and the DSS-1 was the first sampler to really
incorporate synth-style sound shaping in its architecture; in other words,
instead of being a glorified and somewhat arcane tape recorder with keys,
it was a synthesizer whose DCOs happened to be sampling. It has a full
synth architecture, built-in DDL for stereo effects, and I like the keyboard
(although I *hate* the joystick) a lot. It's only 12-bit, but next to a
Mirage it sounds real good. The sound selection isn't on Akai's level,
but it ain't chopped liver neither. I almost bought one of them for $1200;
for $895, if I weren't brokamundo right now, I'd jump at the chance.
Just my opinion, of course.
yeesh ba,
zrgynl
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 89 23:54:46 EDT
From: "Kevin R. Weiner"
Subject: Re: Korg DSS-1
Apparently Korg's interest in the sampler market has waned, partly due
to the fact that people who were buying the mid-range units were more
interested in playing than sampling. They had announced an S-1, but
that will probably never materialize. They're putting most of their
stock in the M-1. I just recently picked up a DSM-1 (the rack mount
cousin of the DSS-1) and I really like the sound. I believe they are
very close in sound quality, though you can only trade disks from the
DSS-1 to the DSM-1, not vice versa. As someone mentioned, they are
pretty slow loading. While we're on the subject, does anyone know of
a good source for DSS-1/DSM-1 samples?
Kevin Weiner Lehigh University Computing Center (215) 758-3991
End of EMUSIC-L Digest
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