issue04

EMUSIC-L Digest                                    Volume 20, Number 4

This issue's topic: Drum machines and related software

   Alesis HR-16 (2 messages)
   Boss DDR-550 (11 messages)
   Roland R-8 (8 messages)
   Roland TR-505 (5 messages)
   UpBeat (3 messages)

Your EMUSIC-L Digest moderator is Joe McMahon .
You may subscribe to EMUSIC-L by sending mail to listserv@american.edu with 
the line "SUB EMUSIC-L your name" as the text.
 
The EMUSIC-L archive is a service of SunSite (sunsite.unc.edu) at the 
University of North Carolina.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:         Fri, 24 Aug 90 10:46:26 EDT
From:         Andy Silverman 
Subject:      Alesis HR-16

For $100 more than the Alesis HR-16 you can get a Roland R-5, which I find is
much more flexible in terms of incoming MIDI data, and has an equally nice set
of sounds.  From what I remember of the HR-16, only 16 sounds at a time were
accessible, depending on which keys had been programmed to what sounds. On the
R-5 all 68 samples and 24 "edits" of those samples are accessible at ANY time,
from MIDI or the keypads or whatever.  This means you can lay down a beat with
the buttons programmed one way, then reprogram which sounds are assigned to the
buttons, and lay the new sounds on top of the old ones, no restrictions at all.

Andy Silverman
+-----------------------+-----------------------------------------+
| Andy Silverman        | Internet:   asilver@grad1.cis.upenn.edu |
| "Grrr."               | Compu$erve: 72261,531  Prodigy: JCSB27A |
+-----------------------+-----------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date:         Sat, 25 Aug 90 12:19:36 BST
From:         Ad Aerts 
Subject:      Re:  Rolland TR-505 used

According to Brian Adamson:
>         The drum sounds do not appear to responds to velocity information
> from an external MIDI source either.  So it's fairly limited.
It isn't VERY touch-sensitive, but it DOES respond to velocity. It does
not respond to most other MIDI-messages like volume. Yes, it IS fairly
limited.

> Also, they
> are 8 bit sounds, you will like your M1 drum sounds much more.
I've always liked this "compact" sound. It still use it, sometimes.

>         So, unless you are short on voices on your M1, I'd use it's
> drum sounds probably.  Or for maybe a little more money you can
> find an Alesis HR-16 or something similar which responds better
> to MIDI.
I've been able to borrow an HR16, to see if you could use it in a
sequencing-evironment (Atari St1040 + Cubase 1.5). I couldn't bring it
to respond to more than 16 note-messages. This means that the majority
of the sounds are not available. That's a pity, because the sounds are
allright. This also means the this machine is useless for use with
sequencer programs. Or am I too harsh?

--
Ad Aerts                            (=====  Disclaimer:
Instruction and Documentation Dpt.  (=====  Who? Me?
Mediasystemen, Netherlands          (=====
e-mail: aerts@media01.UUCP          (=====  Don't give me an instruction
        AERTS@HUTRUU52.BITNET       (=====  manual. I already got one.

------------------------------

Date:         Fri, 24 Aug 90 11:13:58 -0700
From:         The MIDIman 
Subject:      Re:  Rolland TR-505 used

adamson%ITD.NRL.NAVY.MIL@PSUVM.PSU.EDU

>        The drum sounds do not appear to responds to velocity information
>from an external MIDI source either.  So it's fairly limited.

The sounds DO respond to velocity.  As a first drum machine, I rather enjoyed
it, but I have recently upgraded to the Boss DR-550, which you might want to
look into.  You can get it for around $210, and its got 48 sounds (5 kicks,
6 snares), and is 16-bit.  VERY nice indeed.

Steven R. Seidman

------------------------------

Date:         Mon, 27 Aug 90 13:17:29 EDT
From:         "ISA-HRDD Robert N. Muth" 
Subject:      Re:  Rolland TR-505 used

> . . .  upgraded to the Boss DR-550..

	I also recently picked up a Boss DR-550.  Sam Ash had both the Boss and
the Rolland on sale (in fact, they still might).  The Rolland sounded nice,
but the Boss blew it out of the water.  The only problem with the Boss is that
it doesn't have a MIDI OUT.  So if you want to program a pattern on the Boss
and send it over to a MIDI sequencer, you're out of luck.  Still, the Boss's
superior sound made me choose it over the Roland.

					Robert Muth
					rmuth@cor1.pica.army.mil

P.S.  If anyone wants more info, send me a message, and I'll dig out the
owner's manual.

------------------------------

Date:         Mon, 27 Aug 90 14:52:00 EDT
From:         Marc TARDIF 
Subject:      Thanks: Rolland TR-505 used

Date:   27-AUG-1990 14:46:57

First I want to thanks everyone who took a little time to answer my question.

>The sounds DO respond to velocity.  As a first drum machine, I rather enjoyed
>it, but I have recently upgraded to the Boss DR-550, which you might want to
>look into.  You can get it for around $210, and its got 48 sounds (5 kicks,
>6 snares), and is 16-bit.  VERY nice indeed.
>
>Steven R. Seidman

I saw the DR-550 and I noticed there was only a MIDI IN plug, without a MIDI
OUT as the TR-505.  Is this make a big difference (excuse my lack of knolage
and my poor english) with a computer sequencer (IBM-PC)?

                                        THANKS AGAIN.     Marc!


------------------------------

Date:         Mon, 27 Aug 90 15:32:15 -0700
From:         The MIDIman 
Subject:      Re:  Thanks: Rolland TR-505 used

>I saw the DR-550 and I noticed there was only a MIDI IN plug, without a MIDI
>OUT as the TR-505.  Is this make a big difference (excuse my lack of knolage
>and my poor english) with a computer sequencer (IBM-PC)?
>
>                                        THANKS AGAIN.     Marc!

Yes, as someone else pointed out, the DR-550 doesn't have a MIDI OUT.  The main
reason to have it is so that you can place the patterns into a sequencer, but
the screen shows you where each drum sound is in the pattern, so you can just
step edit it into a sequencer pattern.  The other reason to have MIDI OUT is to
use it like an arppegiator to a sequencer.  That is what I am using my TR-505
for now.  Despite the fact it doesn't have a MIDI OUT, the sound quality and
extra editing features more than make up for it (IMO).

Another thing to think about is that on the TR-505, the Crash cuts off the
ride, and the ride cuts off the crash.  It is really noticeable when you hit
the crash and then hit the ride without letting the crash finish its output.
This problem is avoided with the DR-550.

Steven R. Seidman

------------------------------

Date:         Tue, 28 Aug 90 15:19:00 EDT
From:         METLAY@PITTVMS.BITNET
Subject:      About the DDR-550





I should point out, for the benefit of Steven Seidman and others, that
I do not consider the DDR-550 to be unworthy of praise. Far from it: it
is, as my good friend Soy Sos would say, "A crushin power tool." Its sounds
are lovely, and it's remarkably easy to program, even if the Roland grid
has been collapsed from 2D into 1D (Hey, a 3D grid! Now THERE'S a Drum
Programmer for you! And it'd look so good on my Amiga....) But I think that
aside from its sounds and the remarkable value for the money it represents,
its primary attraction to staid old music types is its SIZE. The damned
thing is TINY! Anyone who's only seen the TR-505 (previously the smallest
real drum box one could get) will be shocked; anyone used to the DMX or
the LinnDrum will keel over. This gives it immense utility for travelling
composer's rigs and the like. My gripes about it are few but telling: no
MIDI out, no tunable sounds or velocity/pressure sensitive pads, no stereo

------------------------------

Date:         Tue, 28 Aug 90 15:22:00 EDT
From:         METLAY@PITTVMS.BITNET
Subject:      ahem. as I was saying

....ONLY stereo outs and no individual outs. I regard the R-5 and R-8
as much better machines for my porpoises, but hey, they also cost a
hell of a lot more than the DDR-550, too. |->

metlay

PS. On a related note, can an R-8 owner out there tell me if one can
transmit velocity and pressure from its pads via MIDI, and if note
numbers can be changed from kit to kit? It just occurred to me that
if I can't afford a Thunder, then.....|->

------------------------------

Date:         Tue, 28 Aug 90 14:43:00 EDT
From:         Craig Hicks 
Subject:      More DDR-550 Questions

Okay, all you DDR-550 fans, my interest has been piqued.
How many audio outputs does this beast has?  Only two
stereo?  Can you assign each sound to a different output, or
pan it between?  Could somebody send me a list of all of the
sounds this thing has?  How many sounds are accesible
simultaneously?

Craig Hicks
National Academy of Sciences
Washington, D.C.  USA
chicks@nas.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:         Tue, 28 Aug 90 15:38:08 EDT
From:         "ISA-HRDD Robert N. Muth" 
Subject:      Re:  More DDR-550 Questions

>How many sounds are accesible simultaneously?

12

>Could somebody send a list of sounds....

By tommorrow, yes.

And from Metlay's latest message...

> ... No stereo

Daring to bear the wrath of flamethrowers, what do you mean by this?  The
thing can have each of its sounds panned.

Oh, and TINY is a good description.  Try I can fit the thing into my briefcase
and still have plenty of breathing room.


					Robert N. Muth
					rmuth@cor1.pica.army.mil

------------------------------

Date:         Tue, 28 Aug 90 13:11:07 EDT
From:         "ISA-HRDD Robert N. Muth" 
Subject:      Re:  Thanks: Rolland TR-505 used

>Another thing to think about is that on the TR-505, the Crash cuts off the
>ride, and the ride cuts off the crash.  It is really noticeable when you hit
>the crash and then hit the ride without letting the crash finish its output.
>This problem is avoided with the DR-550.

One thing really nice about the DR-550 is that you can avoid this problem IF
you want to.  This is to say that the DR-550 is programmable to allow certain
instruments in a group to cut off other instruments in that same group.  For
instance, if you have an open hi-hat in group 1, you can program the closed
hi-hat to also be in group one, thereby having it cut off the open hi-hat
whenever it is played.  I believe there are 2 such groups, plus the option
not to put the voice in either group.  If this is the case, then no other
voices will cut the voice not belonging to either group.

Again, I must plug the excellent sound quality the 16-bit DR-550 has to offer.
48 sounds, with delay, tone color, pan, level, group and accent parameters to
play with are available.  I was really impressed with how much better it
sounded than the TR-505.  And it is not all that much more (around $50).

					Robert N. Muth
					rmuth@cor1.pica.army.mil

------------------------------

Date:         Tue, 28 Aug 90 10:35:21 -0700
From:         The MIDIman 
Subject:      Re:  Thanks: Rolland TR-505 used

>48 sounds, with delay, tone color, pan, level, group and accent parameters to
                 ^^^^^
Shouldn't that read decay?  Yeah, the DR-550 lets you change the decay of the
sound, so for instance, you can get really long snare sounds (they use this
on the presets for some hard rock patterns) or you can get a short little tap.
This makes me feel like there are MORE than the 48 sounds.

I have had it for a little over 2 weeks now, and I am still enjoying it as if
I just purchased it today!!!!

Steven R. Seidman

------------------------------

Date:         Tue, 28 Aug 90 14:16:00 EDT
From:         METLAY@PITTVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re:  Thanks: Rolland TR-505 used

From: The MIDIman :
>I have had it for a little over 2 weeks now, and I am still enjoying it as if
>I just purchased it today!!!!

Good heavens, man, I should hope so!

I hope that's not exactly what you meant to say, or that I'm misinterpreting
things, because that statement reads as if you are flabbergasted that a piece
of gear could actually hold your interest for two weeks, which is (as
Christopher Guest said in "The Princess Bride") the saddest thing I've ever
heard in my life.

What am I missing?

metlay

------------------------------

Date:         Mon, 3 Sep 90 02:40:47 EDT
From:         "Michael Lehnertz (Drummer)" 
Subject:      Roland R-8


   The Akai sample (S950) can only do 9 voices at once? Wow, that is quite
a bummer if you ask me. With the R-8, there is a paramater called "Feel." When
you use different feel settings, the attack, decay and pitch all change with
the velocity. Now, I haven't played much with this, but, when I do a snare
roll, you actually get the subtlties (sp?) of a snare roll. There is actually
a buzz to a closed roll and accents and what not. For those of you that have
used older drum machine (The Alesis HR-16 in my case) you will notice that a
roll sounds like a machine gun fire. Also, you don't have to have a studio to
great sounds with the R-8. The sounds ARE amazing with this. I just got the
Jazz ROM Card yesterday. Sounds pretty kicker.

                                                - Drummer -

------------------------------

Date:         Sun, 26 Aug 90 21:25:35 EDT
From:         "Michael Lehnertz (Drummer)" 
Subject:      Roland R-8 and sequencing...

    Let's see if this makes it... Anyway, I just got myself a Roland R-8m
 drum machine (not really a machine though) and I want to use my Mac to run
 the thing. I have seen MacDrums and all that. I was wondering what I should
 get. Nothing like Performer or Composer though. We are talking in the $200
 price range. After buying this and some cards for it, my funds are low.

    For those of you that haven't heard the Roland R-8m, it is AWESOME. I
 will tell those that are interested if they want...

                                           - Drummer -

------------------------------

Date:         Mon, 27 Aug 90 15:22:56 EDT
From:         "Michael Lehnertz (Drummer)" 
Subject:      Roland R-8 again...

   The prices I have seen are about $700 for the normal R-8 and about $800
for the R-8m. I got my R-8m for $716. I am good buddies with the drum sales
type person at my area music store. Anyway, the cards go for about $60 a piece.
ALSO, the brush sounds for this machine are excellent. I have never heard a
drum machine do brush sounds. These are years beyond anyone else. I might just
be out of a job if this thing catches on! It is amazing and in my mind, well
worth the money...

                                                 - Drummer -

------------------------------

Date:         Mon, 27 Aug 90 15:15:41 EDT
From:         "Michael Lehnertz (Drummer)" 
Subject:      Re: Roland R-8 and sequencing...

   The Roland R-8 is a drum machine. It can take one additional ROM card
   but can sequence. It has the buttons on it.

   The R-8m is just a percussion tone module. It takes 3 additional ROM
   cards though. You can access about 140 sounds at once. It is also a
   rack mounted unit (which I like).

                                            - Drummer -

------------------------------

Date:         Mon, 27 Aug 90 13:09:08 -0400
From:         "Jerry A. Jelinek" 
Subject:      Roland R8M

I notice that there is some disscussion of the Roland R8M drum
machine (?). Can you guys send me some specs and pricing?? I am
interested in jazz brush sounds and so far have been unsuccessful
in finding them.  Are there any reviews in Keyboard??? I'm at work
and don't have them handy, I'll look at old issues tonight.

This sounds like something I might be interested in for further drum
sounds. Currently I use a Yamaha RX120 and Proteus 1, but find the
sounds acceptable, but nothing earth shaking.

Jerry

------------------------------

Date:         Wed, 29 Aug 90 07:38:18 EDT
From:         "Michael Lehnertz (Drummer)" 
Subject:      Re: ahem. as I was saying

   The R-8 IS velocity sensitive. (I am pretty sure I know what that means)
Check this out (important to drummers who trigger...), you can hit your pads
softer and you get different sounds, just like you would get with a real set.
For instance, if you hit a snare drum lightly, all the snares won't ring and
you get a small sound and if you tag it, you get a BIG, full sound. The same
goes for the R-8. This is the first drum "machine" I have ever been able to
roll on and get an actual roll and not the machine gun blast.

   You can change MIDI numbers for each set. I never do that. I just assign
different sounds to each MIDI number for every set that I use. That way, I can
leave my MIDI controller where it is and call new sets from the R-8 only. It
also has 8 output jacks on it!


                                          - Drummer -

------------------------------

Date:         Wed, 29 Aug 90 02:33:48 EDT
From:         Bryan Sells 
Subject:      Re: Roland R-8 and sequencing...

An R8M is a rack mounted version of the R8.  This means no pads, no sequencer.
But you get three PCM card slots and 1 RAM cad:rd slot.  It is truly a great
module.
BRYAN
sells@husc9.harvard.edu

------------------------------

Date:         Thu, 30 Aug 90 10:21:00 EDT
From:         "b.klassen" 
Subject:      Drumming ...

I've been using a combination of sampled drums from the S950 and the
Proteus ... what can the R8m give me that I can't get from my current
set-up?  It's tempting to me just to offload my sampler, which only
has 8 voices.  Can anyone elaborate on this velocity timbre control
Drummer was talking about?  I can do cross-fades on my gear, but that
eats up memory and voices.

brian

------------------------------

Date:         Thu, 23 Aug 90 09:09:00 EDT
From:         Marc TARDIF 
Subject:      Roland TR-505

Date:   23-AUG-1990 08:58:44

Hi Emusicians,

        I'm a rooky in Electronic music.  I just got a good deal, A Korg M1 for
1200.00$ Can. with the rigid case and few Rom cards.

        Now I saw a another used device.  It's a Rolland TR-505 drum machine
for 200$ Can. (Can dollar value is about 15% less than US dollar).  Is it a
good deal? Is the machine good?

                                                Thanks,

                                                                Marc!


------------------------------

Date:         Thu, 23 Aug 90 10:58:00 EDT
From:         Craig Hicks 
Subject:      RE: Used Roland TR-505

I bought a new TR505 about 4 years ago for $350.
It is a good drum machine, but there are a few drawbacks--
first, it only has 16 on-board sounds
second, it only has two stereo outputs, unlike other drum
machines that have several.
when it was first introduced, this was a great midi drum
machine for the price. Now though, you might want to get a
used alesis hr-16 instead.
I would try and talk the seller down to $175 Canadian.

Craig Hicks
National Academy of Sciences
Washington, D.C.  USA
chicks@nas (bitnet)

------------------------------

Date:         Fri, 24 Aug 90 09:46:20 EDT
From:         Andy Silverman 
Subject:      Re:  Rolland TR-505 used

Roland TR-505's have about 16 nice sampled sounds and they're well made. The
sounds are nice and punchy, too.  The money's about right, so if you like the
sounds you're getting a pretty average deal.

Andy

------------------------------

Date:         Fri, 24 Aug 90 09:50:48 -0400
From:         Brian Adamson 
Subject:      Re:  Rolland TR-505 used

    Marc,

      I've got a TR-505.  It's a decent machine.  I paid approx. $250
for it new in 1986.  I think I've seen them still selling for about
the same price new recently.  (U.S. dollars btw)

	It's got a good variety of sounds and it's pretty easy to
program (step mode or loop a pattern and add drum parts in real time).

	In addition to the sounds, it has an accent feature.  You can set
the volume level of each of the sounds to one of three levels (also for
the accent)  Unfortunately the sounds maintain the same level unless the
accent is applied on the same beat, in which case all sounds occurring on
that beat are accented.

	The drum sounds do not appear to responds to velocity information
from an external MIDI source either.  So it's fairly limited.  Also, they
are 8 bit sounds, you will like your M1 drum sounds much more.
	So, unless you are short on voices on your M1, I'd use it's
drum sounds probably.  Or for maybe a little more money you can
find an Alesis HR-16 or something similar which responds better
to MIDI.

	But the sounds are nice, and it's a great machine to
try out drum  patterns on, very intuitive to program.  I just
wanted to point out a few of the limitations I have run into.

			Brian Adamson

------------------------------

Date:         Wed, 29 Aug 90 01:52:26 GMT
From:         "Erik D. Olson" 
Subject:      Re: Rolland TR-505 used

In article <9008251119.AA00734@media01.sunnet> aerts%media01@nlnet.nl writes:
>I've been able to borrow an HR16, to see if you could use it in a
>sequencing-evironment (Atari St1040 + Cubase 1.5). I couldn't bring it
>to respond to more than 16 note-messages. This means that the majority
>of the sounds are not available. That's a pity, because the sounds are
>allright. This also means the this machine is useless for use with
>sequencer programs. Or am I too harsh?

There is a way around having only 16 sounds and that is to set up different
"programs" that use other sounds, and then do program changes when you want
a different "kit" of drums.  In some cases, I keep the basic kit (kick,snare,
hi-hats,toms) and have different sets of "percussion" instruments.
The HR-16 will not kill the current sound when you program change, so these
"swappings" can be done seamlessly.  I tend to find the HR16 to be one of
the most versatile and well-thought-out box of its type... practically
anything I can think of, they have put into the damn thing, except for
expansion sounds.


--
Erik D. Olson, grad flunkie extrordinaire    donley@milton.acs.washington.edu

"What is the ugliest part of your body?  I think it's your mind."
			- Frank Zappa

------------------------------

Date:         Mon, 27 Aug 90 09:11:20 MDT
From:         Adam Schabtach 
Subject:      Roland R-8 and sequencing...

If you're using the Macintosh, the best drum sequencing program
available is UpBeat (formerly published by Intelligent Music, now by
Dr. T's). It's really a joy to work with -- very interactive, very
flexible, and useful for other rhythm-oriented sequencing (e.g. bass
lines) as well as drums. It's been reviewed in the various MIDI
magazines and received praise in each one. I think the price is $150.
There used to be a demo disk available; give Dr. T's a call and see if
you can get one.

(No, I have no connection with UpBeat, Intelligent Music, or Dr. T's,
except as a satisfied owner.)

--Adam

------------------------------

Date:         Mon, 27 Aug 90 12:17:20 EDT
From:         Bryan Sells 
Subject:      Re: Roland R-8 and sequencing...

Congatulations, drummer, on your R8M.  i have one myself and I agree that it kicks.  I do have a wish list of improvements, but hey, I use it.  As far as
how to run it, I don't think MacDrums is the best unless you are really good
at roland grid style programming and don't nheed to go beyond that.  You will
not be able to take advantage of any continuous controller stuff like nuance
and pitch change.  Are you using a keyboard?  Just midi it up.  I take it that
you aren't.  In that case Macdrums might me a good solution or perhaps a product

like Upbeat, which is now marketed by Dr. T's.  If you do use a keyboard, get
EZ vision by Opcode.  It is far and away hte best entry level sequencer, and
might even be a good option if you don't have a keyboard, too.  If you decide
to go the MacDrums route, I'd be happy to sell you my copy which has been out
of the box only once.
BRYAN
sells@husc9.harvard.edu
p.s.  Get the electronic card, the jazz brush card, and the contemporary percuss

ion card.  They blow me away.

------------------------------

Date:         Mon, 27 Aug 90 15:13:39 EDT
From:         "Michael Lehnertz (Drummer)" 
Subject:      Re: Roland R-8 and sequencing...

   Well, it seems that everyone is recommending Upbeat. I think that I might
have to check it out pretty soon. I am not ready to buy this software yet
anyway... But...

   I tell ya, I love the Roland R-8. I used on my gigs this weekend. I have
the power drums card and the jazz card. I am getting contemporary percussion
and the sound effects card next. Using those for my studio/commericial work.
I haven't a use for the brush card though... I love it though.

                                        - Drummer -

------------------------------

End of EMUSIC-L digest
******************************