issue11

EMUSIC-L Digest                                      Volume 51, Issue 11

This issue's topics:
	
	"Quest of the Holly Interface"
	Sound Morphing (14 messages)

Your EMUSIC-L Digest moderator is Joe McMahon .
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Date:         Fri, 23 Apr 1993 05:16:18 CDT
From:         Mark Borcherding 
Subject:      Re: "Quest of the Holly Interface"

I use a Voyetra v24s with 2 midi in/4 midi out with
Cakewalk windows with no problem. I have gotten
driver updates to fix problems but I think thats
always going to be the case until everyone understands
windows enhanced mode. Voyetra does have a MPU option
which I do not have. I do have and use the SMPTE
option which is on the v24s. Note: I also have a
soundblaster pro with midi installed and running at
the same time.

Mark Borcherding.

------------------------------
Date:         Tue, 13 Apr 1993 18:54:58 CDT
From:         John Eichenseer 
Subject:      Re: K2000 FM etc.

>I seem to remember something like this being explained to me when I
>saw my first K250 in '84.  Is this possible with the K2000?  Is it
>possible at all?  If so, just what envelope are you modulating with?
>Some sort of "peak apmlitude over the past few miliseconds" or the raw
>sample (seems unlikely)?

I don't tjink you can do this sort of thing with the K2000, or any synth. This
 sounds like the kind of sophisticated processing that you can do in csound or
 low-level DSP programming.

>Or do you translate the samples into the
>frequency domain and modulate there and translate the result back

This is called Fourier analysis and resynthesis, which the K2000 does not do.
 Fancy resynthesis hardware is pretty expensive stuff; you can do limited
 fourier editing with software packages like Alchemy.

There are a million ways to modulate sounds, from vocoding to AM to FM to pitch
 shifting. The Kurzweil does some great stuff, but there is no magic "modulate
 sound 1 with sound 2" function. The fanciest DSP stuff added by the sampling
 option appears to be the time stretching/compressing.

Lots to work with, though.

Heh - I wish there was a sampler with a magical "Transmogrify sound 1 into sound
 2 over n seconds" button. A friend of mine was hoping to do this with neural
 nets; I don't think he got very far. This kind of transformation would be a
 great way to create sound stories, plots that evolve from one element to the
 next. I have thought about this approach to composition often, but it is a very
 complex issue from a technology standpoint. The way I tend to see it is, moving
 from one sound to another is just as difficult and artistic a process as moving
 from one musical (pitch-based) idea to another, and therefore is an endeavor
 that will elude comprehensive analysis.

Anyway,

-jhno

------------------------------
Date:         Wed, 14 Apr 1993 10:04:32 EDT
From:         ronin 
Subject:      transmogrify

how is 'transmogrification' distinct from stepwise interpolation, or
even just simple linear mixing with shifting coefficients?
as for all the myriad ways of modulation, keep in mind that most are
subclasses of a few very basic types. frequency shifting, for instance,
is just amplitude modulation with upper and lower sidebands separated
out. fm is really a variant of phase modulation, when implemented
digitally. vocoding can be considered as subaudio am of source
signal spectral bands. finally, realtime resynthesis is, from what
i've gathered, sort of how dcc works. maybe. i'm still reading up...
anyway...
doesn't the k2000 do nonlinear waveshaping? that's something that could
be put under the heading of 'modulate sound 1 with sound 2' and still
not strictly be fm.

-----------< Cognitive Dissonance is a 20th Century Art Form >-----------
Eric Harnden (Ronin)
 or 
The American University Physics Dept.
4400 Mass. Ave. NW, Washington, DC, 20016-8058
(202) 885-2748  (with Voice Mail)
---------------------< Join the Cognitive Dissidents >-------------------

------------------------------
Date:         Wed, 14 Apr 1993 09:31:34 PDT
From:         metlay 
Subject:      Re: K2000 FM etc.

John Eichenseer says:
> I wish there was a sampler with a magical "Transmogrify sound 1 into sound
> 2 over n seconds" button.

This is much easier to accomplish with synthesizers, of course; Jim
Binkley, on his home-based release JADE GUITAR, had a piece where
a DX7's output was being modified from one patch to another via sysex
over the course of a song, so it started out as one timbre and gradually
became another.

--
mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * metlay@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll survive. Indeed I will. But boy will I ever be confused.  (s. kellogg)

------------------------------
Date:         Wed, 14 Apr 1993 13:02:20 -0400
From:         Joe McMahon 
Subject:      Re: K2000 FM etc.

>John Eichenseer says:
>> I wish there was a sampler with a magical "Transmogrify sound 1 into sound
>> 2 over n seconds" button.
>
>This is much easier to accomplish with synthesizers, of course; Jim
>Binkley, on his home-based release JADE GUITAR, had a piece where
>a DX7's output was being modified from one patch to another via sysex
>over the course of a song, so it started out as one timbre and gradually
>became another.

I think what John would like is the aural equivalent of a graphic "morph".
Hmmm, now I wonder. If you took a graph of a waveform (or its Fourier
transform, I'm not picky) and DID a graphical morph to a completely
different waveform, what would it sounds like? Probably a MicroWave.
 --- Joe M.

"Primal scream therapy you can dance to?" (A. Schabtach)

------------------------------
Date:         Thu, 15 Apr 1993 10:00:45 +0200
From:         Patrice Tarabbia 
Subject:      transmogrify

:>John Eichenseer says:
:>> I wish there was a sampler with a magical "Transmogrify sound 1 into sound
:>> 2 over n seconds" button.
:>
:>This is much easier to accomplish with synthesizers, of course; Jim
:>Binkley, on his home-based release JADE GUITAR, had a piece where
:>a DX7's output was being modified from one patch to another via sysex
:>over the course of a song, so it started out as one timbre and gradually
:>became another.
:
:I think what John would like is the aural equivalent of a graphic "morph".
:Hmmm, now I wonder. If you took a graph of a waveform (or its Fourier
:transform, I'm not picky) and DID a graphical morph to a completely
:different waveform, what would it sounds like? Probably a MicroWave.
: --- Joe M.

The common "volume crossfade" function does it okay for me.

Patrice
tarabbia@cenatls.cena.dgac.fr

------------------------------
Date:         Thu, 15 Apr 1993 10:49:14 EDT
From:         JASON VANTOMME 
Subject:      Re: EMUSIC-L Digest - 13 Apr 1993 to 14 Apr 1993

> Joe McMahon says:

> > John Eichenseer says:

> > I wish there was a sampler with a magical "Transmogrify sound 1

> > into sound 2 over n seconds" button. This is much easier to
> > accomplish with synthesizers, of course; Jim Binkley,
> > on his home-based release JADE GUITAR, had a piece where
> > a DX7's output was being modified from one patch to
> > another via sysex over the course of a song, so it started
> > out as one timbre and gradually became another.
> >

> I think what John would like is the aural equivalent of a
> graphic "morph". Hmmm, now I wonder. If you took a graph of
> a waveform (or its Fourier transform, I'm not picky) and
> DID a graphical morph to a completely different
> waveform, what would it sounds like? Probably a
> MicroWave.  --- Joe M.

>


This idea has been implemented by a former grad student in
Dartmouth's Electroacoustic program named Martin McKinney.  If I
remember correctly, it was implemented on the NeXT.  I don't know if
he is still there, but a "finger@dartmouth.edu" does show an account
registered to him.  If no response from him, you may want to contact
Larry Polansky (also at Dartmouth), who is the authority on this
problem of musical morphology.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jason D. Vantomme
Faculty of Music, McGill University
Montreal, PQ            CANADA
email:   vantomme@music.mcgill.ca
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

------------------------------
Date:         Thu, 15 Apr 1993 17:56:36 GMT
From:         "Luis E. Scheker" 
Subject:      Re: transmogrify

In article <9304150800.AA04483@geant.cenatls.cena.dgac.fr>
        Patrice Tarabbia  writes:

> :I think what John would like is the aural equivalent of a graphic "morph".
> :Hmmm, now I wonder. If you took a graph of a waveform (or its Fourier
> :transform, I'm not picky) and DID a graphical morph to a completely
> :different waveform, what would it sounds like? Probably a MicroWave.
> : --- Joe M.
>
> The common "volume crossfade" function does it okay for me.

A sonic morph would sound much different than a volume crossfade in
that somewhere in between the transition from sound 1 to sound 2 there
would be a fusion (not simply a layering, as with crossfading) of the
two.  Now suppose you take this fused sound (e.g. a piano-choir) and
morph it into something else (say, a trumpet).  You would then have a
hybrid piano-choir -- trumpet that would sound unlike anything possible
with crossfading.  If sonic morphing were ever realized, it would
represent the aural equivalent of selective breeding.  This is a truly
astounding prospect.

------------------------------
Date:         Thu, 15 Apr 1993 16:49:03 -0500
From:         Brian Adamson 
Subject:      Re: transmogrify

% In article <9304150800.AA04483@geant.cenatls.cena.dgac.fr>
%         Patrice Tarabbia  writes:
%
% > :I think what John would like is the aural equivalent of a graphic "morph".
% > :Hmmm, now I wonder. If you took a graph of a waveform (or its Fourier
% > :transform, I'm not picky) and DID a graphical morph to a completely
% > :different waveform, what would it sounds like? Probably a MicroWave.
% > : --- Joe M.
% >
% > The common "volume crossfade" function does it okay for me.
%
% A sonic morph would sound much different than a volume crossfade in
% that somewhere in between the transition from sound 1 to sound 2 there
% would be a fusion (not simply a layering, as with crossfading) of the
% two.  Now suppose you take this fused sound (e.g. a piano-choir) and
% morph it into something else (say, a trumpet).  You would then have a
% hybrid piano-choir -- trumpet that would sound unlike anything possible
% with crossfading.  If sonic morphing were ever realized, it would
% represent the aural equivalent of selective breeding.  This is a truly
% astounding prospect.
%
%

        Yes, there could be a distinct difference between graphically
morphing a sound
and a volume crossfade ... it would depend somewhat on the graphical morphing
algorithm.  A simple example to visualize and consider:

    Morphing a single cycle of a 1 kHz sinusoid into a 2 kHz sinusoid would
slide
through the frequencies, with spectral components from 1 kHz to 2 kHz with
sideband
components depending on the rate of morph ... (In my mind I visualize the 1
kHz to
2 kHz morph as a spring compressing to a shorter wavelength) A volume
crossfade would only contain
the distinct 1 & 2 kHz spectral components.  However, someone else might
visualize
the morph differently.

   So it is unclear what effect graphical morphing would have, depends on
the algorithm
used.  Even for visual applications, morphing isn't a cut-and-dried process
... the user
selects reference points at his discretion to produce the morphin effect he
or she desires.
It certainly would be interesting to see/hear what might happen.

- Brian A.

------------------------------
Date:         Fri, 16 Apr 1993 07:41:11 +0000
From:         Nick Rothwell 
Subject:      Re: K2000 FM etc.

>Jim
>Binkley, on his home-based release JADE GUITAR, had a piece where
>a DX7's output was being modified from one patch to another via sysex
>over the course of a song, so it started out as one timbre and gradually
>became another.

A nice idea but only works generically on some architectures. On a DX7, a
change of algorithm will sound pretty abrupt unless the changeover is
highly structured with respect to the invariants in the voice architecture.
Try this kind of thing on a Wavestation and, well, *fzzt*, "WELCOME TO THE
KORG WAVESTATION."

                        Nick Rothwell   |   cassiel@cassiel.demon.co.uk
     CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance   |   cassiel@cix.compulink.co.uk

------------------------------
Date:         Fri, 16 Apr 1993 01:20:17 PDT
From:         Mike Friesen 
Subject:      Musical Morphing

&%$#:> (many messages re. timbral/wavetable morphing...)

I've been tossing this idea around for a few years now, but haven't
cudgeled myself into writing the up the code to do it. As has been
suggested already, my solution was to use sysex messages. The algorithm I
was looking at would allow the user to define "start" and "end" patches;
whereupon the software would calculate, over a specified time frame (OR
specified number of note events) a "delta sequence" - a list of timestamped
sysex messages.

Given the synths for which I'm inclined to try it (Roland J-106, various FM
instruments) the problem lies primarily in handling non-linear values.
Algorithm and transposition are the two real nasties here: you simply can't
interpolate values. The solution I devised was to give the user a 'break
parameter' option whereby the discrete event could be selectively placed
within a 'delta sequence'. Experience and experimentation would determine
the best placement.

If my math (and experience in FM programming) is up to snuff, you should be
able to get some unearthly things happening when you start mucking about
with the modulator/carrier frequencies. You'll get from one sound to
another without being timbrally sure of just how you got there... kinda
like the sonic equivalent of hyperspace.

One of these days I'll have to snag MAX and see if I can get it happening.



********************************************************
Michael Friesen             North Peace Secondary School
        Fort St. John, British Columbia, Canada
I've got a piece of brain lodged in my head! - Mr. Gumby
********************************************************

------------------------------
Date:         Fri, 16 Apr 1993 07:55:53 EDT
From:         Doug Walker 
Subject:      Re: Musical Morphing

>
>&%$#:> (many messages re. timbral/wavetable morphing...)
>
>I've been tossing this idea around for a few years now, but haven't
>cudgeled myself into writing the up the code to do it. As has been
>suggested already, my solution was to use sysex messages. The algorithm I
>was looking at would allow the user to define "start" and "end" patches;
>whereupon the software would calculate, over a specified time frame (OR
>specified number of note events) a "delta sequence" - a list of timestamped
>sysex messages.
>
>Given the synths for which I'm inclined to try it (Roland J-106, various FM
>instruments) the problem lies primarily in handling non-linear values.
>Algorithm and transposition are the two real nasties here: you simply can't
>interpolate values. The solution I devised was to give the user a 'break
>parameter' option whereby the discrete event could be selectively placed
>within a 'delta sequence'. Experience and experimentation would determine
>the best placement.
>
>If my math (and experience in FM programming) is up to snuff, you should be
>able to get some unearthly things happening when you start mucking about
>with the modulator/carrier frequencies. You'll get from one sound to
>another without being timbrally sure of just how you got there... kinda
>like the sonic equivalent of hyperspace.
>
>One of these days I'll have to snag MAX and see if I can get it happening.
>
>
>
>********************************************************
>Michael Friesen             North Peace Secondary School
>        Fort St. John, British Columbia, Canada
>I've got a piece of brain lodged in my head! - Mr. Gumby
>********************************************************
>
>
Hi Michael:

This isn't in answer to your note above. Are you a composer? Here on the
National Capital FreeNet in Ottawa (the second largest in the world after
2 months online!) there is a New Music SIG which deals with contemporary
music matters of a technical, philosophical, or just informative nature,
We have a lot of postings of an international nature about microtonal
music especially, since I've been into that for 30 years, although I'm not
very known here in Canada (or anywhere else!). I'm the SIGop and it would
be great having you drop by electronically to post something like the
above message.

I see by your school address that we have something else in common.My day
job is in education, teaching grade 7 late French Immersion.

Hope to hear from you!

Regards

Doug

------------------------------
Date:         Fri, 16 Apr 1993 11:11:04 -0400
From:         Joe McMahon 
Subject:      Re: transmogrify

>So it is unclear what effect graphical morphing would have, depends on the
>>algorithm used.  Even for visual applications, morphing isn't a cut-and-dried
>>process... the user selects reference points at his discretion to produce the
>>morphing effect he or she desires.

Yes. Certainly one has a lot of options here: assign "close" points (i.e.,
choose peaks and valleys in the two waveforms that would be close to one
another if the waveforms were overlaid) or "distant" points (randomly
select places in the waveforms to be mapped into one another).

I'm pretty sure the "close" version is what the MicroWave does to
interpolate between two waveforms; sample 0 maps to sample 0, etc, with a
linear interpolation between wave 1 and wave 2. I don't think anything does
the "distant" version (random sample X maps to random sample Y). I suppose
I should have written this up before spilling my guts on the net... :-)

 --- Joe M.

"Primal scream therapy you can dance to?" (A. Schabtach)

------------------------------
Date:         Fri, 16 Apr 1993 08:18:30 PDT
From:         metlay 
Subject:      Re: K2000 FM etc.

>>Jim
>>Binkley, on his home-based release JADE GUITAR, had a piece where
>>a DX7's output was being modified from one patch to another via sysex
>>over the course of a song, so it started out as one timbre and gradually
>>became another.
>
>A nice idea but only works generically on some architectures. On a DX7, a
>change of algorithm will sound pretty abrupt unless the changeover is
>highly structured with respect to the invariants in the voice architecture.
>Try this kind of thing on a Wavestation and, well, *fzzt*, "WELCOME TO THE
>KORG WAVESTATION."

The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain.

Now THIS would be a good place for something like a computer-based sound
architecture, I would think. You don't have to worry about some bozotic
little CPU chip going er er er if you ask it to do something odd.....

--
mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * metlay@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll survive. Indeed I will. But boy will I ever be confused.  (s. kellogg)

------------------------------
Date:         Fri, 16 Apr 1993 11:35:16 EDT
From:         wbf@ALUXPO.ATT.COM
Subject:      Re: Sound Morphing

Joe M:
> I'm pretty sure the "close" version is what the MicroWave does to
> interpolate between two waveforms; sample 0 maps to sample 0, etc, with a
> linear interpolation between wave 1 and wave 2.

What if the samples are of different lengths?  And what about looping?
--
Bill Fox * Fox's Den Recording Studio * Nazareth, PA * wbf@alux1.att.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You don't have to worry about some bozotic little CPU chip going er er
er if you ask it to do something odd....." - Metlay

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End of the EMUSIC-L Digest
******************************