issue03

EMUSIC-L Digest                                      Volume 58, Issue 03

This issue's topics:
	
	Q: tips on writing pop-style music (8 messages)

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Date:         Sun, 21 Nov 1993 01:22:36 EST
From:         JOHN ALBERT PINION 
Subject:      Q: tips on writing pop-style music

I have been wanting to ask this question of those who regularly compose
on their midi systems.  I have a modest mac-based sequencer system with
which I can write some pretty groovy loops (I go for a simple catholic-pop
style).  OK, fine;  but then, I don't know where to go from there for a nice
bridge, say, or other sections.  I can't seem to retain enough of the first
part, while adding something different for variety to extend the song out.
Each section usually comes out like a totally different song.

Maybe I ought to go look at some books on musical theory and song writing,
but if there are some easy tips you can share, I would very much appreciate it.

How do you (yes, you, personally) go from a good loop, to a
whole song thats neither too monotonous or too disconnected?
Are there some particular tricks that you use?   Some of the
stuff I've done that I like the best was totally free form, but sequence
over-dubbed beginning-to-end several times.  But then, that's jazz, not pop
music.  I like the idea of effeciency of order and structure in
modern classic pop, and want to do stuff in that style.  So far, the best
I've got are jammin' grooves, but it takes a _damn_ good 4 measures to make
a song ('course it's done more and more these days).  There's a lot to
be said for a quality loop, but then, that's another mail message...

Thanks for sharing your expertese and experience!!

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Date:         Sun, 21 Nov 1993 15:43:51 EST
From:         Bill Mclaughlin 
Subject:      Re: Q: tips on writing pop-style music

hi,

there's great book called "writing music for hit songs" by Jai Josefs,
writers digest books, despite the awful title it contains some really good
info, things that you sound like you would be interested in, ie: motifs and
motific development, melodic contour, harmonic alterations, song forms,
grooves, intros and endings etc.

however, my *advise* would be to concentrate on content  first and form
second.  i happen to like the unexpected in a tune, though it's really risky,
which is why is prefer knowing that my content can withstand the abnormal
form.  i also like to listen to artists who break with convention - i find
that it helps me shake off the conventional cobwebs.  of course i'm not
saying i do any of this at all successfully, but i do try.
see ya.

bill

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Date:         Sun, 21 Nov 1993 21:15:21 +0000
From:         Nick Rothwell 
Subject:      Re: Q: tips on writing pop-style music

>Maybe I ought to go look at some books on musical theory and song writing,
>but if there are some easy tips you can share, I would very much appreciate it.

You ought to go look at some books on musical theory and songwriting.
Although it requires more effort than firing off a message to this mailing
list, it will be more focussed and more useful, and it gives you something
to bring to a discussion.

I've no idea whether anyone here would admit to writing pop music anyway.
I'm personally into Alternative German Post-modern New Age Euroslam Minimal
Wide-space Physical-theatre Cyclic World-ambient Semidetached Quad-tone
Laban Metatarsal-arch Cyber-Yanni Phase-Modulation stuff myself.

                        Nick Rothwell   |   cassiel@cassiel.demon.co.uk
     CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance   |   cassiel@cix.compulink.co.uk

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Date:         Sun, 21 Nov 1993 17:22:41 PST
From:         James Hedberg 
Subject:      Re: Q: tips on writing pop-style music

John,

U-sed:
> I have been wanting to ask this question of those who regularly compose
> on their midi systems.

> Each section usually comes out like a totally different song.

> but if there are some easy tips you can share, I would very much appreciate
 it.

> How do you (yes, you, personally) go from a good loop, to a
> whole song thats neither too monotonous or too disconnected?

I'm not exactly a pop star, but I have the same problem you discribe
above.  Some things that I've done to smooth out transitions are:

Don't change keys at the point of transition

Don't change time sigs. or tempo at this point either

Don't completly change the drum pattern, keep one drum the same (or
very much the same) until the first or second cadence.  Usually I'll
keep the bass drum the same & change the snare & cyms.

Try to give hints to the listener that things are about to change.
For example change the drum beat before you change the other
instrumentation or vice versa.

Try to use transition measures before changes.  Sometimes it's as
simple as doing tonic on the downbeat for a whole measure.

That should be a good start!

-Jim Hedberg
hedberg@inference.com

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Date:         Sun, 21 Nov 1993 22:43:20 -0400
From:         "ANDREW \"MICHEALANGELO\" YOUNGER" 
Subject:      Re: Q: tips on writing pop-style music

Hi, try writing in a pattern. The key to pop music is writing something
which becomes catchy. It should be monotonous but not sound that way.
Sometimes when I used to write pop music (I write more Celtic based stuff now)
I found that it was beneficial to write in the pattern Verse-Chorus-verse-
chorus-bridge-verse-chorus, or some kind of variation of this.
In pop music remember while the lyrics don't by definition need to be
brilliant they must be catchy and go well with the music. In ordwe
(oops)
in order to make the top 10 or top 40 your chorus has to be catchy, not to
wordy and very repetitive in order to have people hum it as they walk down
the street to the record store.
Anyhow, to put it into perspective pattern writing is a good idea in pop music.
Try writing patterns for verse and refrain such as AABB and ABAB (or if you
want to get adventurous try ABCABC or ABABC). In the end don't have a ten
minute song it worked for Marillion but rarely does in pop music.
Catch you later
Andrew


AYOUNGER@ac.dal.ca

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Date:         Mon, 22 Nov 1993 09:47:21 -0500
From:         Mark G Simon 
Subject:      Re: Q: tips on writing pop-style music

On Sun, 21 Nov 1993, JOHN ALBERT PINION wrote:
>
> Maybe I ought to go look at some books on musical theory and song writing,

That would be a very good idea!
>From there you should go on to study the great song writers. Get the
sheet music. Study the chord structure. How does the chord progression in
the verse differ from the bridge? How about the melody? What from the
verse does the songwriter retain in the bridge? Study all the Beatles
songs. Heck go all the way back and study Gershwin, Cole Porter. Work
your way up to Paul Simon, Bert Bacharach. They're all masters of the
popular song, and worthy of emulation. Don't feel guilty about stealing.
You can't possibly develop your own style until you've absorbed the
styles of the masters. After all, that's how they became masters themselves.

 > How do you (yes, you, personally) go from a good loop, to a
> whole song thats neither too monotonous or too disconnected?

Well, I usually try to avoid loops, but let's say you take a look at your
verse and see how many different melodic components you can extract out
of it. Could be just a few notes long, could be a few measures. Take
something from the middle, not the very beginning. If you take your
initial idea the bridge is going to sound too similar (there are always
exceptions of course). Take something from measure 2 or 3. Play it at a
different pitch level, or play it at the same pitch level and put
different chords to it. Find a different continuation for it. Try a
zillion different possibilities. If one of them works it will be well
worth it. Not only that you will have exercised your imagination muscles.
I believe the imagination is a muscle that needs to be exercised just
like anything else. The more songs you write the better in shape that
muscle will be, the more fluent you'll be at it, and then you won't have
to puzzle so much over creative problems because your brain will be adept
at finding solutions.

Here's another tip. Get away from you sequencer, you synths, everything.
Listen to your song in your mind. If you've only got 4 measures, ask
yourself "how does the next measure go?" then think of it. DON'T TRY TO
PLAY IT ON ANY INSTRUMENT. You want your brain to write the song not your
fingers, and certainly not your software. Then when you've got measure 5
fixed in your brain think of measure 6, and so on. Only when you can go
absolutely no farther should you go to the piano or sequencer. Then
listen to the whole thing and ask yourself "Do I like this?" If the
answer is yes, then congratulations. If not, get away from your sequencer
once again and play the song through in your mind. Ask yourself "what's
wrong here and how can I fix it?"

You may have to write 100 songs before you come up with a good one. Maybe
500. Maybe more. Music requires great patience. Good luck!

Mark Simon
mgs2@cornell.edu

------------------------------
Date:         Mon, 22 Nov 1993 10:28:37 -0500
From:         Mark G Simon 
Subject:      Re: Q: tips on writing pop-style music

>
> however, my *advise* would be to concentrate on content  first and form
> second.  i happen to like the unexpected in a tune, though it's really risky,
> which is why is prefer knowing that my content can withstand the abnormal
> form.  i also like to listen to artists who break with convention - i find
> that it helps me shake off the conventional cobwebs.  of course i'm not
> saying i do any of this at all successfully, but i do try.
> see ya.

My advise is just the opposite. The rules are there for a purpose. Learn
what that purpose is. Then you may find that you can achieve the same
goal by a different method. Believe me all artists who break with
convention and achieve successful results started out by learning the
rules. You can't possibly break rules in a meaningful way until you know
what the rules are. Also consider this, if there are no rules, there's
nothing to rebel against! Rules set up a norm, a pattern of expectation
in the listener. Part of the fun of music is to build up the listener's
expectations only to frustrate them with something unexpected, or to
fulfill them in some unusual way. A creative musician makes the rules
work for him(her), not the other way around.

Mark Simon
mgs2@cornell.edu

------------------------------
Date:         Mon, 22 Nov 1993 15:30:36 -0500
From:         Joe McMahon 
Subject:      Re: Q: tips on writing pop-style music

A few random remarks:

 - When studying a genre, it is best to look at composers who are good at
   what they do. Pick out the stuff you enjoy and analyze that. It is much
   easier to write stuff that you are simpatico with. I highly recommend
   Weird Al Yankovic as an outstanding songwriter. He does an excellent job in a
   large number of genres; comparing him against the "source material"
   (e.g., "Waffle King" from his new album and Peter Gabriel's recent
   popular tunes) is a really good way of seeing what portions of the
   material are characteristic.

 - You mentioned that the stuff that you liked the best that you'd done
   was not pop at all. Okay, why don't you want to do more of that? Admittedly
   you're less likely to become rich and famous if you pursue your own vision,
   but you'll enjoy yourself more that way.

 - Keep everything, even the stuff that doesn't work, and play it over once in
   while. Pick out what's good and recycle it into something else.

 --- Joe M.

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