issue04

EMUSIC-L Digest                                      Volume 58, Issue 04

This issue's topics:
	
	VCR/VHS for Mastering? (18 messages)

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Date:         Tue, 2 Nov 1993 14:07:44 -0500
From:         Jon Crystal 
Subject:      VCR/VHS for Mastering?

Does anyone have experience with/advice regarding the low-cost strategy of
using a HiFi VHS deck for mastering purposes (non-professional use)?  If
so, what configuration is desirable (i.e. flying erase heads, etc)?  I may
need to replace an old mono VCR soon, and thought it might be
cost-effective to do so with a unit which could serve multiple purposes.


Jon Crystal
University of Vermont
357 Waterman
Burlington, VT 05405
email: jcrystal@moose.uvm.edu

------------------------------
Date:         Tue, 2 Nov 1993 13:19:36 -0800
From:         Richard Clingman 
Subject:      Re: VCR/VHS for Mastering?

        I have a 8-channel Fostex/Studio3/OpcodeVision system (all
        synchronized together).  Up until about a year ago, I would
        cut individual master cassettes on a so-so Sony cassette
        deck.

        Then I bought a new Sony VHS Hi-Fi deck and began mastering
        on it.  The results are nothing less than terrific.  I am
        totally happy with the setup.  About the only thing I wish it
        had were separate meters, controls and inputs for the 2 digital
        channels and the 2 analog channels (even though it hasn't
        really turned out to be a problem).

        The 2 meters on the Sony have a huge fudge factor - I found
        that I could consistently light up the overload LEDs without
        any distortion.  And the playback is SOOOOO CLEAN!

        When recording VHS Hi-Fi, you are recording video signal as
        well.  So I point a camera at my computer screen.  This gives
        me a visual record of the time code, song title, sequence
        portion that is playing (ie: intro, verse1, chorus, etc).  It
        works great for cueing when you are cutting dubs.

        Don't know about flying erase heads.  They WOULD create
        fairly seamless edits which might allow you to put several
        songs together without any glitchy stuff in between.  The
        Sony has them so I don't know what it would be like without
        them.  Your question has me wondering about whether the song
        itself could be sliced and diced.  Might be interesting to
        try if you had a playback deck that could synchronize along
        with the VHS Hi-Fi deck so that your edit point was precise.

        My Sony is not synchronized in any way.  I just put it into
        record and hit play on my 8-channel Fostex.  My sequencer
        chase-locks to the Fostex and I'm MIXING.  If I screw up I
        rewind the whole lot and try again.

        So I say, do it, you will not regret it!  Oh yeah, it also
        records video real nice ;-)

>
> Does anyone have experience with/advice regarding the low-cost strategy of
> using a HiFi VHS deck for mastering purposes (non-professional use)?  If
> so, what configuration is desirable (i.e. flying erase heads, etc)?  I may
> need to replace an old mono VCR soon, and thought it might be
> cost-effective to do so with a unit which could serve multiple purposes.
>
>
> Jon Crystal
> University of Vermont
> 357 Waterman
> Burlington, VT 05405
> email: jcrystal@moose.uvm.edu
>


--
 ____________________________________________________________________________
 Richard Clingman,Sr.Training Developer | I want to put a small video in a
 ADP Dealer Services; Portland, Oregon  | window here in my signature!!!
       (503) 294-4200 ext. 2419         | OK, I'll settle for a small audio
   email: richard@plaza.ds.adp.com      | playback!!!    OK, I'll settle fo ____________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------
Date:         Tue, 2 Nov 1993 16:39:24 -0500
From:         Dean Keith 
Subject:      Reply to Re: VCR/VHS for Mastering?

>Super Beta will give you a better picture.  The audio is about the same
>quality as VHS.  But we all kmow how common Beta machines are...
>
>Bill Fox

I use a Sony Super Beta Hi-Fi unti for mastering, and It's GREAT!

It has seperate left and right input adjustments, and the VU is pretty accurate,
though you CAN push it way into the red without audible distortion, but sicne
it has very VERY little tape noise, I don't push it to the max.

It even has an "Audio Only" mode in which no video is recorded; and Beta is a
superior video machiene than VHS too.  Though I think that Sony is using some
of their Beta technology in the newer VHS machines they make.

I think it's too bad that Beta didn't catch on here in the US simply because
Sony was out marketed by the Companies that wouldn't pay them for rights to
use their patents.

Oh well I guess it's mostly Sony's over inflated ego that caused it.
 ______________________________________________________________________________

                                         Dean Keith
                                         dkeith@tarleton.edu
                                         Tarleton State University
                                         Stephenville, Texas, USA
 ______________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------
Date:         Tue, 2 Nov 1993 16:42:26 EST
From:         Bill Fox 
Subject:      Re: VCR/VHS for Mastering?

Jon Crystal asks:
> Does anyone have experience with/advice regarding the low-cost strategy of
> using a HiFi VHS deck for mastering purposes (non-professional use)?

Go for it!
Pros:   1. It's the best analog audio recording medium available to the consumer market.
        2. Up to six hours recording time if needed.  But it is better
        to use it at its fastest speed to minimize dropouts.
        3. Does double duty as a video unit.  (Duh!)
        4. Many people have them and connect them to their stereos.
        Great if you need to play it at a friend's or producer's home.
Cons:   1. Just you try and edit it! 2. Most machines don't have volume controls.
        3. Metering for the audio section might not be robust.
        NOTE: Because VCRs aren't geared towards audio only use, 2 and 3 are prevalent.  I still haven't figured out how to OPTIMALLY set
        recording levels.  Maybe if I had some distortion measuring gear
        I could increase levels until a certain distortion level is
        reached.  Comments?
        4. Not everybody has one and some who do don't have them
        connected to their stereo.  Makes it hard to have the universal
        portability of the analog cassette.

Super Beta will give you a better picture.  The audio is about the same
quality as VHS.  But we all kmow how common Beta machines are...

Bill Fox

------------------------------
Date:         Wed, 3 Nov 1993 03:49:40 EST
From:         Paul Pizzi 
Subject:      Re: VCR/VHS for Mastering?

> Does anyone have experience with/advice regarding the low-cost
> strategy of using a HiFi VHS deck for mastering purposes
> (non-professional use)?

I don't see the point... Why buying a stereo-digital audio VCR
when today you can have a good DAT machine AND a mono VCR for
much less?
In addition to being more convenient, DAT machines provide far
better audio quality, random search capabilities and digital
I/Os. Take the Tascam DA30, for example. You can purchase this truly
professional machine (XLR analog inputs, AES/EBU digital I/Os
*without* the annoying SCMS) for around $900 and a basic VCR for $200.
As far as I know a VCR with manageable digital audio features is way
more expensive than the sum of the two.

I remember when I owned a SONY F601 some ten years ago. I was using
a VCR as a digital storage: what a nightmare! It took 4-5 minutes just
to search for the beginning of a selection. Not to mention technica
l
problems like dropouts, strange clicks etc...




     ===============================
     S
                             S
     S        PAOLO PIZZI          S
     S   Time El
apsed Art Music    S
     S    Los Angeles - U.S.A.     S
     S
     S
     S-----------------------------S
     S                             S
     S           email:            S
     S        pizzip@aol.com       S
     S
   pizzi@delphi.com      S
     S   72772.234@compuserve.com  S
     S                             S
     ===============================

- Patria est ubicumque est bene (Pacuvius)

------------------------------
Date:         Wed, 3 Nov 1993 10:11:00 EDT
From:         John Rossi III 
Subject:      Re: VCR/VHS for Mastering?

The notion that DAT + Mono-VHS is cheaper than VHS-HiFi is idiotic.  While
perfectly good Hi-Fi VCR at K-Mart can be had for about $350, I am unaware of
any DAT machine which actually sells for less than $450 or so.  Also, Mr. Pizzi
is incorrect about SCMS on the DA-30.  First of all, in a stock DA-30 SCMS
is fully implemented.  That is, anything which comes in the digital side
causes the flag to be set.  This disables making copies, just as in any other
SCMS based machine.  However, the DA-30 does allow the SCMS to be defeated
by making a simple hardware modification to the main circuit board.  While
this is a simpel modification, it does require that the machine be opened
up and that minor surgery be performed.  Additionally, while the modification
disables the SCMS serial copy management for DA-30 recordings, it does not
stop the DA-30 from reacting to SCMS flags in material recorded from other
DATs.  For example, if you have a 'consumer' portable DAT and you make a
digital copy from the DA-30 to the portable, the DA-30 will still respect the
SCMS added by the portable.  While this is not totally defeating, ti still
can be a pain in the ass.  Don't get me wrong, I love my DA-30, it is just
not what Mr. Pizzi describes.

John

------------------------------
Date:         Wed, 3 Nov 1993 09:43:15 -0500
From:         Bill Scott 
Subject:      Re: VCR/VHS for Mastering?

One great vhs machine is the Toshiba DX900 which not only records in
HIFI but also records stereo (14 bit) PCM on the video track. It will
play 16 bit PCM recorded VHS. All in all it has 5 channels: 2 PCM,
2 HIFI, and one mono. The video is high end too, including digital
freeze of TV, etc. Too bad they stopped making them, but they might
be out there used.

Bill Scott

------------------------------
Date:         Wed, 3 Nov 1993 16:51:49 EST
From:         Paul Pizzi 
Subject:      VCR/VHS for Mastering?

> The notion that DAT + Mono-VHS is cheaper than VHS-HiFi is
> idiotic.

mmmm...sounds like the same gentleman that likes quarreling all the
time with me. OK, let me explain for this person, obviously is so
eager to attack people as not to fully read messages before
replying.

I was talking about *DIGITAL AUDIO* VCR and not analog hi-fi
VCRs, that makes a BIG difference in price. I hope it's clear
now.

>  Also, Mr. Pizzi is incorrect about SCMS on the DA-30. First of all,
> in a stock DA-30 SCMS is fully implemented.

I stated, and I repeat it as a proud owner of a DA30, that SCMS is
NOT implemented on the AES-EBU port whereas it is on the SPDIF.
Evidently my very unpolite friend only fumbles with consumer digital ports
and is totally unaware of what his machine can do in the (professional)
digital realm.

So I repeat again for the sake of people that have difficulties in
understanding plain english that if someone wants DIGITAL quality for
his/her master a Digital audio-VCR is a poor choice because it DOES cost
more than a DAT+VCR.

And to conclude let me point out a couple of imprecisions of my nervous
friend:

> While perfectly good Hi-Fi VCR at K-Mart can be had for about $350

I got a Sharp, 4head, stereo-hifi at Target for $250, admittedly on sale
but if you look around it's not difficult to beat $350 for that item.

> I am unaware of any DAT machine which actually sells for less than $450

A friend of mine got a portable SONY at a clearance sale here in L.A. for
$400 (new!). I guess if you don't care about the latest model you can find
some of these bargains around.


So, my dear John, chill off and try to add some substantial contribution
to this list instead of whining like a baby with your pointless
controversies.



     ===
============================
     S                             S
     S        PAOL
O PIZZI          S
     S   Time Elapsed Art Music    S
     S    Los Angeles - U.S.A.
   S
     S                             S
     S-----------------------------S

S                             S
     S           email:            S
     S
  pizzip@aol.com       S
     S       pizzi@delphi.com      S
     S   72772.234@compuse
rve.com  S
     S                             S
     ===============================

- Patria est ubicumque est bene (Pacuvius)

------------------------------
Date:         Wed, 3 Nov 1993 23:26:32 GMT
From:         Stephen Schow 
Subject:      Re: VCR/VHS for Mastering?

Bill Scott (WSCOTT@ACS.WOOSTER.EDU) wrote:
: One great vhs machine is the Toshiba DX900 which not only records in
: HIFI but also records stereo (14 bit) PCM on the video track. It will
: play 16 bit PCM recorded VHS. All in all it has 5 channels: 2 PCM,
: 2 HIFI, and one mono. The video is high end too, including digital
: freeze of TV, etc. Too bad they stopped making them, but they might
: be out there used.

: Bill Scott

Anyone know good techniques when using a VCR for mastering to help in keeping
track of where on the tape my songs are?  One person suggested using a video
camara and pointing it at the computer screen.  Unfortunately I don't own
a video camera.

It can be a real pain in the butt to locate a song with out a number to index
on.  You could get some idea by resetting the tape counter to 0000 before
recording anything and then writing down where they are on the tape.  This
would
work somewhat.  I'm looking for even better solutions.  An ideas?
--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Schow    | But you don't need to use the claw, if you
sjs@netcom.com | pick the pear with the big paw paw......
(415) 354-4908 | Have I given you a clue......?
               |                       - Baloo the Bear
------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------
Date:         Thu, 4 Nov 1993 10:04:39 -0500
From:         Bill Scott 
Subject:      Re: VCR/VHS for Mastering?

re:"Anyone know good techniques when using a VCR for mastering to help in
 keeping
track of where on the tape my songs are?  One person suggested using a video
camara and pointing it at the computer screen.  Unfortunately I don't own
a video camera. "

______
High end VCRs such as the Toshiba PCM I described have a marking function
that, when implemented, can find each spot on the tape where recording
was initiated. All you have to do is start recording before each song and
fast forward or rewind will take you to the mark afterward.

Bill Scott

------------------------------
Date:         Fri, 5 Nov 1993 14:38:23 -0500
From:         Dean Keith 
Subject:      Reply to Re: VCR/VHS for Mastering?

>Anyone know good techniques when using a VCR for mastering to help in keeping
>track of where on the tape my songs are?  One person suggested using a video
>camara and pointing it at the computer screen.  Unfortunately I don't own
>a video camera.

Sure, just put in your audio, and also put video in from your TV's tuner.  Then
set it to a different channel for each song (or mix).  Then when you fast
forward, you will see the video change for the next part.  If you have 2 VCRs
you can even put a "video" with the song, though there will be no way to
syncronize the video.
 ______________________________________________________________________________

                                         Dean Keith
                                         dkeith@tarleton.edu
                                         Tarleton State University
                                         Stephenville, Texas, USA
 ______________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------
Date:         Fri, 5 Nov 1993 13:23:06 -0800
From:         Richard Clingman 
Subject:      Re: Reply to Re: VCR/VHS for Mastering?

>
> >Anyone know good techniques when using a VCR for mastering to help in keeping
> >track of where on the tape my songs are?  One person suggested using a video
> >camara and pointing it at the computer screen.  Unfortunately I don't own
> >a video camera.
>
> Sure, just put in your audio, and also put video in from your TV's tuner.
 Then
> set it to a different channel for each song (or mix).  Then when you fast
> forward, you will see the video change for the next part.  If you have 2 VCRs
> you can even put a "video" with the song, though there will be no way to
> syncronize the video.
>
>                                          Dean Keith
>                                          dkeith@tarleton.edu
>                                          Tarleton State University
>                                          Stephenville, Texas, USA

        Good VERY LOW COST idea depending on your VCR.  On mine if I
        switch in the tuner input, my audio line ins also switch.
        Maybe something could be done using audio dub but I think
        you'd have to have the video pre-recorded in that case. Just
        a thought.

        I'm the guy who suggested using a video camera (incidentally,
        I don't own one either, but I have a good friend who does and
        I can borrow it anytime!!!!)

        A medium cost possibility that I've been considering is
        getting one of those "My First Sony" video etch-a-sketch
        units.  I've seen them new for around $90.00  It would allow
        you to build a nice screen full of relevant information. I
        haven't looked at one up close so I don't know whether it
        puts out a line level video signal or RF (you know, tune to
        Channel 3).  Line level video is preferred!

--
 ____________________________________________________________________________
 Richard Clingman,Sr.Training Developer | I want to put a small video in a
 ADP Dealer Services; Portland, Oregon  | window here in my signature!!!
       (503) 294-4200 ext. 2419         | OK, I'll settle for a small audio
   email: richard@plaza.ds.adp.com      | playback!!!    OK, I'll settle fo ____________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------
Date:         Tue, 16 Nov 1993 14:24:48 +0000
From:         Simon Kunath 
Subject:      Re: VCR/VHS for Mastering?

In article <9311021907.AA157795@moose.uvm.edu> jcrystal@MOOSE.UVM.EDU writes:

> Does anyone have experience with/advice regarding the low-cost strategy of
> using a HiFi VHS deck for mastering purposes (non-professional use)?  If
> so, what configuration is desirable (i.e. flying erase heads, etc)?  I may
> need to replace an old mono VCR soon, and thought it might be
> cost-effective to do so with a unit which could serve multiple purposes.
>
>
> Jon Crystal
> University of Vermont
> 357 Waterman
> Burlington, VT 05405
> email: jcrystal@moose.uvm.edu
>
 Ihave been using Nicam stereo VCRs for three years or so to master onto
 without a problem.Don't expect any close editing,as in DAT players it takes
 second or two to go into record,however the low cost of tape & length are
great,3 hrs for $4-8 !!! Work out how many cd length pieces you can get on
that.
--Try to get a VCR with indexing facilities,as finding thing can be a problem.
 Also great for making timed recordings from Radio etc,get the full
concert/play
 etc...
 email me if  if you're stuck.

--
Simon Kunath @ Unstable Sounds --Sussex.Uk.
                   "Determined  Indeterminacy !"

------------------------------
Date:         Tue, 16 Nov 1993 19:47:37 -0800
From:         "R. Fahl" 
Subject:      Re: VCR/VHS for Mastering?

What's the sound quality of HiFi VCRs like?  I read that it's not as good
as DAT, largely because it's actually an analog signal, but that it's as
good as high end cassette decks.  What would you compare it to.

--
ms20@u.washington.edu

------------------------------
Date:         Wed, 17 Nov 1993 10:21:51 EST
From:         The Radio Gnome 
Subject:      Re: VCR/VHS for Mastering?

Hi,

     I've found hi-fi VCRs to be very high quality as far as sound goes,
near CD and certainly better that analog cassette.  the drawbacks are:
larger media, tricky tracking at SLP speed, lack of meters/level controls
on most recorders and built in signal processing that you can't defeat
(like compression or 'hyperbass').
     I use mine twice a week to archive late nite radio programs.  The only
alternative being a $1000+ 10" reel to reel with an outboard timer, or one
of those klugey carousel cassette decks.

           Andy Wing

Big Brother isn't watching you, your watching Big Brother, all 181 channels.

------------------------------
Date:         Wed, 17 Nov 1993 14:03:00 EDT
From:         John Rossi III 
Subject:      Re: VCR/VHS for Mastering?

VHS HiFi, compares very favorably to 1/4" half-track 15ips analog tape with
dBx-I processing in all but one spec.  Because of the modulation process
involved with getting the audio signal into the helical video signal, a low
level high frequency buzz is generated.  It is down pretty low and is masked
by almost any audio signal, but it is there and it does rear its head when,
for example, dead space occurs.  At any rate, the buzz floor is a lot lower
than any cassette noise floor, and as a recording medium VHS-HiFi is very
much suoerior to any analog cassette format.

John

------------------------------
Date:         Wed, 17 Nov 1993 16:22:36 EST
From:         Bill Fox 
Subject:      Re: VCR/VHS for Mastering?

On Tuesday, 16 Nov 1993, R. Fahl  wrote:
> What's the sound quality of HiFi VCRs like?  I read that it's not as good
> as DAT, largely because it's actually an analog signal, but that it's as
> good as high end cassette decks.  What would you compare it to.

On Tuesday, November 2, I said:
> Jon Crystal asks:
> > Does anyone have experience with/advice regarding the low-cost strategy of
> > using a HiFi VHS deck for mastering purposes (non-professional use)?
>
> Go for it!
> Pros: 1. It's the best analog audio recording medium available to the
>       consumer market.

And I thought that *I* was getting senile!   ;^)

Foxy
                                 /\        /\
                                /  \------/  \
                               /              \
                              (          )
                               \              /
                                \            /
                                 \__\    /__/
                                     \  /
                                      \/

------------------------------
Date:         Wed, 17 Nov 1993 20:37:02 -0800
From:         "R. Fahl" 
Subject:      Re: VCR/VHS for Mastering?

On Wed, 17 Nov 1993, John Rossi III wrote:

> VHS HiFi, compares very favorably to 1/4" half-track 15ips analog tape with
> dBx-I processing in all but one spec.  Because of the modulation process
> involved with getting the audio signal into the helical video signal, a low
> level high frequency buzz is generated.  It is down pretty low and is masked
> by almost any audio signal, but it is there and it does rear its head when,
> for example, dead space occurs.  At any rate, the buzz floor is a lot lower
> than any cassette noise floor, and as a recording medium VHS-HiFi is very
> much suoerior to any analog cassette format.
>
This is sounding pretty good.  My partner and I are getting separate
studios, so I'm losing mastering capabilities (DAT) as well as video.
Looks like this is a good way to kill two birds with one stone.

Tweet tweet ;-)


        - Romeo

--
ms20@u.washington.edu

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