issue01

EMUSIC-L Digest                                      Volume 59, Issue 01

This issue's topics:
	
	'Score' Notation Program (8 messages)
	'Score' Notation Program/Elliot Carter
	Finale (was Re: 'Score' Notation Program)
	Notation Programs (2 messages)

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------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 1993 07:33:33 -0500
From:         idealord 
Subject:      Re: 'Score' Notation Program

>
> I have heard that 'Score' for the PC is the only notation
> program from which music publishers like Peters and Boosey
> & Hawkes will accept manuscripts.  I have heard that it is
> easier to use than Finale.  Does anyone have experience with
> this program?  Janice Saffir Northeast MO State Univ.  Kirksville
>

Sorry, I don't have experience, but I know people who use it and it's NOT
easier to use than Finale.  If you don't mind in typing ascii note lists ala
Tex it can do some very clean layouts.

I like to use a nice GUI type program and then run it through a PostScript
interpreter and fine tune the PostScript myself.

Jeff Harrington
idealord@dorsai.dorsai.org

------------------------------
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 1993 09:11:07 -0500
From:         William Matthews 
Subject:      Re: 'Score' Notation Program

re SCORE and FINALE:

I've used both and found SCORE extremely difficult and counterintuitive to
use, and FINALE to be the opposite.  FINALE has been improved in the
recent versions so you can tweak it to get just about any graphic result
you want.

SCORE is good if you have the whole piece already notated (in pencil?) in
front of you;  it's not easy to compose with.  FINALE has several features
which make it helpful during the compositional process.

I have seen notices of SCORE upgrades with better MIDI utilities, but they
have not been integrated with the notational aspects of the program in
previous versions.

Both programs are complex, flexible, and powerful;  both have steep
learning curves -- but with FINALE I found it easier to learn a little bit
at a time, as I needed it.  With SCORE, you have to begin with a big
conceptual leap just to get the first notes on the first system.

Bill Matthews
wmatthew@abacus.bates.edu

------------------------------
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 1993 19:11:20 EST
From:         Paul Pizzi 
Subject:      'Score' Notation Program

I remember seeing a demonstration of "Score" in Europe with the
programmer himself, back in the last part of the eighties. HE was
very fast in inputting notes and the results were so amazing as
to convince many people I knew to buy it even though I warned them
it wouldn't be as easy as it seemed. Well, all but one switched to
Finale (and to the mac, of course :-) ) in just few weeks (and at
that time it wasn't as user friendly as version 3...)

I don't know what program major publishers use and to tell you the
truth I couldn't care less; Finale is just the best notation pro-
gram around, indeed the most powerful and nothing else comes even
close.




=========================================
*    *                             *    *
*    *        PAOLO PIZZI          *    *
*    *   Time Elapsed Art Music    *    *
*    *    Los Angeles - U.S.A.     *    *
*    *                             *    *
*    *-----------------------------*    *
*    *                             *    *
*    *          email:             *    *
*    *       pizzip@aol.com        *    *
*    *      pizzi@delphi.com       *    *
*    *  72772.234@compuserve.com   *    *
*    *                             *    *
=========================================

- Patria est ubicumque est bene (Pacuvius)

------------------------------
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 1993 21:35:05 EST
From:         Keith Maynard - CCC 
Subject:      Re: 'Score' Notation Program

Hi,

I have been interested in scoring software for sometime now. Lot's of people
seem to love Finale. Has anyone used Finale to score heavily syncopated input?

The reason I ask this is that I write soca music (modernized calypso) and
the melodies are heavily syncopated, most attacks are on the upbeat. I find that
when I try to feed this type of stuff to notation software it generally does not
get it right.  Could some experienced Finale user try to play the following
rhythmic pattern into finale and let me (us) know how it fared?

        er qn en_en qn en | wn | er qn en_en qn en | wn |.

er is an eighth note rest,
qn is a quarter note
en is an eighth note
en_en is a pair of tied eighth notes.

I'd be curious to hear if Finale produced the correct notation. Then I will
run to the nearest store to get it.

Thanks

Keith Maynard.

------------------------------
Date:         Wed, 1 Dec 1993 23:16:10 -0600
From:         Kenneth Wayne Goodson 
Subject:      Re: 'Score' Notation Program

I find it is generally more accurate and quick to use Finale's "Speedy
Note Entry" rather than trying to play realtime. I've had better luck
doing realtime entry on a sequencer and doing major quantization in the
sequencer then dump the MIDI file into Finale.

************************************************************
*Kenneth Goodson                   *Atlanta High School    *
*Band Director/UIL Computer Science*705 Rabbit Blvd        *
*kgoodson@tenet.edu                *Atlanta, TX  75551     *
*(903) 796-4636 (home)             *(903) 796-7213 (office)*
************************************************************
 "Up, up and away, in my beautiful balloon"-Fifth Dimension


On Wed, 1 Dec 1993, Keith Maynard - CCC wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I have been interested in scoring software for sometime now. Lot's of people
> seem to love Finale. Has anyone used Finale to score heavily syncopated input?
>
> The reason I ask this is that I write soca music (modernized calypso) and
> the melodies are heavily syncopated, most attacks are on the upbeat. I find
 that
> when I try to feed this type of stuff to notation software it generally does
 not
> get it right.  Could some experienced Finale user try to play the following
> rhythmic pattern into finale and let me (us) know how it fared?
>
>         er qn en_en qn en | wn | er qn en_en qn en | wn |.
>
> er is an eighth note rest,
> qn is a quarter note
> en is an eighth note
> en_en is a pair of tied eighth notes.
>
> I'd be curious to hear if Finale produced the correct notation. Then I will
> run to the nearest store to get it.
>
> Thanks
>
> Keith Maynard.

------------------------------
Date:         Thu, 2 Dec 1993 09:55:24 -0500
From:         Mark G Simon 
Subject:      Re: 'Score' Notation Program

>
> The reason I ask this is that I write soca music (modernized calypso) and
> the melodies are heavily syncopated, most attacks are on the upbeat. I find
 that
> when I try to feed this type of stuff to notation software it generally does
 not
> get it right.  Could some experienced Finale user try to play the following
> rhythmic pattern into finale and let me (us) know how it fared?
>
>         er qn en_en qn en | wn | er qn en_en qn en | wn |.
>
> er is an eighth note rest,
> qn is a quarter note
> en is an eighth note
> en_en is a pair of tied eighth notes.

>
> I'd be curious to hear if Finale produced the correct notation. Then I will
> run to the nearest store to get it.

I suppose it depends on how accurately you can play it. Even the most
sophisticated software can't read your mind. The rhythm you give is
actually pretty simple, since it all operates at the eighth note level,
and there are no triplets or other kinds of "tuplets" to muck things up.
Finale has a "floating quantization" feature which is supposed to take
that into account but you have to play your triplets very precisely or
else you'll get something else. My guess is that Finale will get the
syncopated figure correctly, but will give you something like a half note
tied to an eighth or dotted eighth unless you're really careful to hold
the note down for exactly 4 beats. Most musicians will lift their fingers
at some point just after the 4th beat in anticipation of playing the next
measure. In most cases, if the notation comes out wrong, it's because the
software transcribed what you played too accurately.

For me the quickest way to enter notes is step-time with a MIDI keyboard.
Play a chord, hit the appropriate number on the Mac keyboard, and there's
your chord, with the proper rhythm. It's simple. For ties, just hit the "="
key. Nothing too intellectually demanding about that.

If you *really* want to test your notation program, get ahold of a score
of Elliott Carter's String Quartet no. 3. Try playing a few measures of
that, and see what you get, heh heh.

Mark Simon
mgs2@cornell.edu

------------------------------
Date:         Thu, 2 Dec 1993 17:06:11 -0500
From:         Robert Thompson 
Subject:      Re: 'Score' Notation Program

Score is extremely interesting - best bet is to contact Leland Smith (author)
directly if you are interested to know the current implementation.  I would
guess that SCORE is now available on several platforms with graphic interfaces
it used to be a typsetting program for music - very, very steep learning
curve.

musrst@gsusgi2.gsu.edu

------------------------------
Date:         Thu, 2 Dec 1993 17:08:19 -0500
From:         Robert Thompson 
Subject:      Re: 'Score' Notation Program

I have a version for DOS PC and full documentation from an earlier version
of SCORE - if you or anyone is interested in learning more.

------------------------------
Date:         Thu, 2 Dec 1993 10:21:45 EST
From:         Larry R Larson 
Subject:      Re: 'Score' Notation Program/Elliot Carter

RE: your comment about SQ #3--

In 1985 I constructed a audio click track for the Kronos Quartet so that they
could perform the third quartet with minimal rehearsal.  (!) Keeping two
independent metrical structures totally coherent, in spite of the rythmic
complexity of each of the voices, was quite a challenge, particularly onn a
Commodore 64(!)

It worked, but the performance, by the quartet's own admission, didn't.

Some years later, when working for the San Francisco Symphony, I had a chance
to work with Carter and point out the two metrical errors that existed in the
score, which no one had ever noticed.

It is a very beautiful work.

------------------------------
Date:         Thu, 2 Dec 1993 03:16:21 EST
From:         Paul Pizzi 
Subject:      Finale (was Re: 'Score' Notation Program)

> I find it is generally more accurate and quick to use Finale's "Speedy
> Note Entry" rather than trying to play realtime.

I totally agree. Real time transcription is a joke on any program (or I'd
better say a buzzword to entice potential customers), unless your music is
VERY simple (no tuplets, steady beats, no time signature changes etc...)
In addition if your music is not strictly tonal (i.e. atonal or late XIX
century chromaticism-like)  there's a high chance that many of the acci-
dentals are wrong and need a long correcting session.
As for MIDI transcription things are a LITTLE better, but not much and cer-
tainly that's not Finale's forte.

I generally use "Speedy note entry" with one hand on a MIDI keyboard and
the other on the mac's (to enter values and eventually correct wrong acci-
dentals.) After many years of this practice I've become quite fast.




=========================================
*    *                             *    *
*    *        PAOLO PIZZI          *    *
*    *   Time Elapsed Art Music    *    *
*    *    Los Angeles - U.S.A.     *    *
*    *                             *    *
*    *-----------------------------*    *
*    *                             *    *
*    *          email:             *    *
*    *       pizzip@aol.com        *    *
*    *      pizzi@delphi.com       *    *
*    *  72772.234@compuserve.com   *    *
*    *                             *    *
=========================================

- Patria est ubicumque est bene (Pacuvius)

------------------------------
Date:         Thu, 9 Dec 1993 05:04:19 GMT
From:         Hellooo Nurse!! 
Subject:      Re: Notation Programs

 How does Music Prose compare with Finale and some of the other programs? I
have a demo of MP, and for no more than the demo will let me do I'm kinda
impressed (of course, my only other experience was with a cheap Mac notation
program that I don't even remember the name of, so go figure!).
 Please post any comments soon, 'cos right now I plan to get a real copy of
MP over Christmas break.




--
 ((o o))   "Ad hoc, ad loc and quid pro quo--
    ^        so little time, so much to know!" --"Yellow Submarine"
    ~                                             (the movie, not the song)
         >brezovan@iastate.edu<

------------------------------
Date:         Thu, 9 Dec 1993 13:19:50 EST
From:         Paul Pizzi 
Subject:      Notation Programs

>  How does Music Prose compare with Finale and some of the other
> programs?

The main different lies in the maximum staves per system:
32 of Music Prose against 128 of Finale. In addition I believe
MP doesn't have a shape designer (you won't miss it unless you
write avant-garde stuff.)

Anyway, beware of someone trying to sell you "Music Prose" because
it's a phased out product. Coda upgraded it and switched its name
to "Finale Allegro".

It averagely sells for around $250.




=========================================
*    *                             *    *
*    *        PAOLO PIZZI          *    *
*    *   Time Elapsed Art Music    *    *
*    *    Los Angeles - U.S.A.     *    *
*    *                             *    *
*    *-----------------------------*    *
*    *                             *    *
*    *          email:             *    *
*    *       pizzip@aol.com        *    *
*    *      pizzi@delphi.com       *    *
*    *  72772.234@compuserve.com   *    *
*    *                             *    *
=========================================

- Patria est ubicumque est bene (Pacuvius)

------------------------------
End of the EMUSIC-L Digest
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