issue03

EMUSIC-L Digest                                      Volume 61, Issue 03

This issue's topics:
	
	Yamaha VL-1 (16 messages)

Your EMUSIC-L Digest moderator is Joe McMahon .
You may subscribe to EMUSIC-L by sending mail to listserv@american.edu with 
the line "SUB EMUSIC-L your name" as the text.
 
The EMUSIC-L archive is a service of SunSite (sunsite.unc.edu) at the 
University of North Carolina.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:         Fri, 18 Feb 1994 13:48:01 -0600
From:         Arne Claassen ISE 
Subject:      Yamaha VL-1

Got to see, hear and feel one of these beauties today. God, what patches.
Unfortunately (aside from the pricetag) it would be fairly useless to me, since
it does require actual skill to play, which i don't really have (yeah,
i program) but the Yamaha rep with a breath controller made it sing.

Physical modelling, boy. Wave of the Future!

--
Arne F. Claassen               |"In cows we trust    | EPS Classic * D4
   | E pluribus Moo"     | Juno 106
            | MTV for eMpty minds | Mac Centris 650

------------------------------
Date:         Fri, 18 Feb 1994 16:09:25 -0500
From:         Mark G Simon 
Subject:      Re: Yamaha VL-1

> Got to see, hear and feel one of these beauties today. God, what patches.
> Unfortunately (aside from the pricetag) it would be fairly useless to me,
 since
> it does require actual skill to play, which i don't really have (yeah,
> i program) but the Yamaha rep with a breath controller made it sing.
>
> Physical modelling, boy. Wave of the Future!

The thought just came to me that what we really need are not more sounds,
but more effective real-time modulation of the sounds we have. I'm
suggesting that the reason people have put up with the same old violin
sound for the past 300 years is that its response to real-time modulation
effects (bowing, fingering) is so excellent. That's what makes this
physical modelling idea sound so intriguing. Sure it takes actual skill
to play, but that's what playing an instrument is all about.

I'm praying that someone will come out with a physical modelling clarinet
controller that will respond to breath, tonguing and fingering the way my
clarinet does, but with the potential to make all manner of sounds that
my clarinet could never dream of. Yow.

Mark Simon
mgs2@cornell.edu

------------------------------
Date:         Sat, 19 Feb 1994 12:22:48 -0500
From:         Wesley Felteau 
Subject:      Re: Yamaha VL-1

Mark, Stop dreaming and go get a Yamaha WX-7.  This MIDI wind controller works
 well with all FM synths.  The fingerings are almost identical to a clarinet.
 They are exactly the same as a sax.
                                        Wes Felteau
                                        wfelteau@stc.edu

------------------------------
Date:         Tue, 22 Feb 1994 15:59:11 -0500
From:         Brian Good 
Subject:      Re: Yamaha VL-1

>
> Mark, Stop dreaming and go get a Yamaha WX-7.  This MIDI wind controller works
>  well with all FM synths.  The fingerings are almost identical to a clarinet.
>  They are exactly the same as a sax.
>                                         Wes Felteau
>                                         wfelteau@stc.edu

Um, I don't think that's quite what Mark had in mind.  To anyone used
to playing an acoustic wind, the WX7 and its brethren are rather pale
imitations of the real thing.  Now don't misunderstand--I've got
nothing against the WX7, and I've played the EWI for a number of
years.  Within limits, they're absolutely wonderful;  they give
you an enormous range of sounds that the acoustic instruments can't
match.  But they're simply not capable of the kind of subtlety that
you can get from a acoustic instrument.  And, for me, at least,
they never really come alive--it's like trying to play with a
mitten on your tongue.

brian good
bgood@sundagger.lerc.nasa.gov

------------------------------
Date:         Tue, 22 Feb 1994 18:12:13 -0600
From:         scott e dart 
Subject:      Re: Yamaha VL-1

from what I understand, this new VL-1 is just what us MIDI wind enthusiats
need. Finally, patches that are as sensitive to wind control as the
controllers are. I feel that the limitations are not in the XW-7/EWI, but
in the patches that we use with them. Granted they could be more
expressive, but up until this point, hardly any synths could truly express
the things that it was capable of doing. Hopefully (but I'm not holding my
breath) Yamaha will be forthcoming with a new wind controller that will be
geared for use with physical modelling synths, such as the VL-1. that
would be a truly great step forward. physical modeling synths seem to have
been tailor-made for wind control. :)

On Tue, 22 Feb 1994, Brian Good wrote:

> >
> > Mark, Stop dreaming and go get a Yamaha WX-7.  This MIDI wind controller
 works
> >  well with all FM synths.  The fingerings are almost identical to a
 clarinet.
> >  They are exactly the same as a sax.
> >                                         Wes Felteau
> >                                         wfelteau@stc.edu
>
> Um, I don't think that's quite what Mark had in mind.  To anyone used
> to playing an acoustic wind, the WX7 and its brethren are rather pale
> imitations of the real thing.  Now don't misunderstand--I've got
> nothing against the WX7, and I've played the EWI for a number of
> years.  Within limits, they're absolutely wonderful;  they give
> you an enormous range of sounds that the acoustic instruments can't
> match.  But they're simply not capable of the kind of subtlety that
> you can get from a acoustic instrument.  And, for me, at least,
> they never really come alive--it's like trying to play with a
> mitten on your tongue.
>
> brian good
> bgood@sundagger.lerc.nasa.gov

------------------------------
Date:         Tue, 22 Feb 1994 18:20:28 -0600
From:         Arne Claassen ISE 
Subject:      Re: Yamaha VL-1

> from what I understand, this new VL-1 is just what us MIDI wind enthusiats
> need. Finally, patches that are as sensitive to wind control as the
> controllers are. I feel that the limitations are not in the XW-7/EWI, but
> in the patches that we use with them. Granted they could be more
> expressive, but up until this point, hardly any synths could truly express
> the things that it was capable of doing. Hopefully (but I'm not holding my
> breath) Yamaha will be forthcoming with a new wind controller that will be
> geared for use with physical modelling synths, such as the VL-1. that
> would be a truly great step forward. physical modeling synths seem to have
> been tailor-made for wind control. :)

The VL-1 i saw demoed had a breath controller that looked like a heat-set
mike (i actually though it was at first) I was told that the breath controller
reacted to wind, biting and tonguing. Of course no fingering with this unit.
Just a little piece of plastic in your mouth and your hand on the keyboard
and three mod wheels (no need to use both hands on the keyboard when you have
only two voice multitimbrality.

--
Arne F. Claassen               |"In cows we trust    | EPS Classic * D4
   | E pluribus Moo"     | Juno 106
            | MTV for eMpty minds | Mac Centris 650

------------------------------
Date:         Thu, 24 Feb 1994 16:54:35 +0000
From:         Nick Rothwell 
Subject:      Re: Yamaha VL-1

>physical modeling synths seem to have
>been tailor-made for wind control. :)

Tailor-made for any decent responsive interface, not just wind controllers.

I'm saving up for the first physical model based drum machine.


                        Nick Rothwell   |   cassiel@cassiel.demon.co.uk
     CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance   |   cassiel@cix.compulink.co.uk

------------------------------
Date:         Thu, 24 Feb 1994 18:03:32 +0100
From:         Dimitri Van De Ville 
Subject:      Re: Yamaha VL-1

On Sat, 19 Feb 1994, Wesley Felteau wrote:

> Mark, Stop dreaming and go get a Yamaha WX-7.  This MIDI wind controller works
>  well with all FM synths.  The fingerings are almost identical to a clarinet.
>  They are exactly the same as a sax.

The fingering is quite neat; you can use nice techniques. But the FM
sounds do not satisfy me for 'realistic' sounds. The typical synth-sounds
however do fine.

Bye!
        * Dimitri



------------------------------
Date:         Thu, 24 Feb 1994 11:24:47 -0600
From:         Arne Claassen ISE 
Subject:      Re: Yamaha VL-1

> >physical modeling synths seem to have
> >been tailor-made for wind control. :)
>
> Tailor-made for any decent responsive interface, not just wind controllers.
>
> I'm saving up for the first physical model based drum machine.

Really? I thought drums where one kind instrument that was pretty well served
by sampling (ok, cymbals lack a lot to be desired when it comes to muting them
and all). A lot of people i know have used the D4 in studios and live production
for bass kicks, since it appears to be quite hard to get a good fix on it with
a mic.

--
Arne F. Claassen               |"In cows we trust    | EPS Classic * D4
   | E pluribus Moo"     | Juno 106
            | MTV for eMpty minds | Mac Centris 650

------------------------------
Date:         Thu, 24 Feb 1994 18:28:49 MET
From:         Andrea TONI 
Subject:      Re: Yamaha VL-1

> >physical modeling synths seem to have
> >been tailor-made for wind control. :)

Hi,
Does anybody know if there are ftp sites with papers about physical modeling ?
or if not an ftp site ..
where can I find some serious reference (no magazines please !) ??

Ciao,
------------------------------------------------ENV---ENV---ENV----------------
 Andrea TONI (andrea@sihp03.si.estec.esa.nl)     |     |     |
 Solar System and Space                         VCO-->VCF-->VCA--> DUCATI 900SS
 Science Division (SO)                           |     |     |
------------------------------------------------LFO---LFO---LFO----------------

------------------------------
Date:         Thu, 24 Feb 1994 13:58:42 EST
From:         Brian Adamson 
Subject:      Re: Yamaha VL-1

% Really? I thought drums where one kind instrument that was pretty well served
% by sampling (ok, cymbals lack a lot to be desired when it comes to muting them


  Sampling does OK for a given (single) sound that a given drum can make
... but until you start stacking up lots of drum samples (with different
sounds subtly kicking in at different velocity levels) I find myself
getting tired of the drum sound quite quickly ...(You can eat up a quite a
bit of sample memory quickly this way since these sound aren't usually
looped easily)

   Physical modelling will lend itself quite nicely in that the actual
sound a drum makes depends on how hard you hit it (of course), where you
hit it, and what you hit it with ... The standing wave patterns you get on
a drum head may be bit of a computational nightmare ... but probably not
too much worse than for wind instruments I would imagine.


Brian
___________________________________________________________________
R. Brian Adamson                    Information Technology Division
adamson@itd.nrl.navy.mil            Naval Research Laboratory
NRL Code 5523                       Washington, DC 20375

------------------------------
Date:         Thu, 24 Feb 1994 14:15:31 -0700
From:         jk 
Subject:      Re: Yamaha VL-1

From: Arne Claassen ISE 
>Really? I thought drums where one kind instrument that was pretty well served
>by sampling (ok, cymbals lack a lot to be desired when it comes to muting
>them and all). A lot of people i know have used the D4 in studios and live
>production for bass kicks, since it appears to be quite hard to get a good
>fix on it with a mic.

It seems to me that timpani offer a prime arena for physical modeling:
realtime tuning/roll modification, the resonances can get pretty intense.
                                                      _
-john       ___                                    __/ |
___        |   |     JKrikawa@CCIT.Arizona.Edu    |    |___      ________
   \______/     \__________ Tucson, AZ ___../\./\/         \____/        \____

------------------------------
Date:         Sat, 26 Feb 1994 16:28:16 +0000
From:         Nick Rothwell 
Subject:      Re: Yamaha VL-1

>Really? I thought drums where one kind instrument that was pretty well served
>by sampling

Absolutely not, IMHO. Percussion was the first casualty of the sample-based
convenience revolution, and it's way past time things moved back, such that
synthesised percussion could be really expressive, like conga, tabla,
marimba and so on. (Sorry, I'm not interested in rock drums.) Physical
modelling might actually deliver this; that's what I find interesting. I
don't want yet another keyboard (for which conventional synth architectures
seem OK); I want a synthesis model which maps well onto an expressive
percussion performance paradigm.

>A lot of people i know have used the D4 in studios and live production
>for bass kicks,

I consider bass kicks uninteresting.


                        Nick Rothwell   |   cassiel@cassiel.demon.co.uk
     CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance   |   cassiel@cix.compulink.co.uk

------------------------------
Date:         Sat, 26 Feb 1994 12:08:10 -0600
From:         Arne Claassen ISE 
Subject:      Re: Yamaha VL-1

> Absolutely not, IMHO. Percussion was the first casualty of the sample-based
> convenience revolution, and it's way past time things moved back, such that
> synthesised percussion could be really expressive, like conga, tabla,
> marimba and so on. (Sorry, I'm not interested in rock drums.) Physical
> modelling might actually deliver this; that's what I find interesting. I
> don't want yet another keyboard (for which conventional synth architectures
> seem OK); I want a synthesis model which maps well onto an expressive
> percussion performance paradigm.

Ok, point well taken. For rock drums, modules are quite sufficient for my
purposes, but i agree that i have yet to find a decent timpani in sampled
form. Either the attack is wrong or the sustain lacks a lot to be desired.
Kind of a luxury though. At the VL-1 price, i'd be better off with a real
timpani... then again, then i have to get into miking the bastard.

--
Arne F. Claassen               |"In cows we trust    | EPS Classic * D4
   | E pluribus Moo"     | Juno 106
            | MTV for eMpty minds | Mac Centris 650

------------------------------
Date:         Sat, 26 Feb 1994 21:23:01 -0800
From:         David Chandler 
Subject:      Re: Yamaha VL-1

On Sat, 26 Feb 1994, Nick Rothwell wrote:

> >Really? I thought drums where one kind instrument that was pretty well served
> >by sampling
>
> Absolutely not, IMHO. Percussion was the first casualty of the sample-based
> convenience revolution, and it's way past time things moved back, such that
> synthesised percussion could be really expressive, like conga, tabla,
> marimba and so on. (Sorry, I'm not interested in rock drums.) Physical
> modelling might actually deliver this; that's what I find interesting. I
> don't want yet another keyboard (for which conventional synth architectures
> seem OK); I want a synthesis model which maps well onto an expressive
> percussion performance paradigm.
>
> >A lot of people i know have used the D4 in studios and live production
> >for bass kicks,
>
> I consider bass kicks uninteresting.
>
>
>                         Nick Rothwell   |   cassiel@cassiel.demon.co.uk
>      CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance   |   cassiel@cix.compulink.co.uk
I have been making trigger pads of various kinds to play with for my d4.
I use the piezo transducers and bulk mouse pad material for the surface
(great bounce w/different kinds of sticks) and the above discussion brings
up an area I've had lots of initiative with.  Has anyone else explored
building their own drum (trigger device)?  I am making a single drum with
all twelve triggers mounted on various areas such that hitting (with
hands) different parts of the drum results in different levels (velocity
sensitive triggers here) of multiple simultaneous triggers.  I'm using
crosstalk to its' advantage!  A center-of-head hit has a very different
mix of timbres than a side-slap or rim-slap (left and right rim slaps are
tuned differently, too!)  Plus, I've got both feet on foot pedals/levers
for vibrato and slight pitch-mod.  This monster is not complete, but I
made a fairly good working model out of a cylindrical cardboard "can".
Any suggestions on bodies that would be convenient to try mounting my
triggers too?  (I've taped the triggers to the insides of my clothes and
bottoms of my shoes and really entertained my roommates...)

My point is-- there is room for getting those real-time tweakable
parameters involved to give you some "feel" beyond the vel-sens sample
triggering...

David Chandler  -  chandler@nethost.multnomah.lib.or.us  (503)241-2949

------------------------------
Date:         Sun, 27 Feb 1994 13:48:55 -0400
From:         "ANDREW G. YOUNGER" 
Subject:      Re: Yamaha VL-1

>made a fairly good working model out of a cylindrical cardboard "can".
>Any suggestions on bodies that would be convenient to try mounting my
>triggers too?  (I've taped the triggers to the insides of my clothes and
>bottoms of my shoes and really entertained my roommates...)
>
>My point is-- there is room for getting those real-time tweakable
>parameters involved to give you some "feel" beyond the vel-sens sample
>triggering...
>
>David Chandler  -  chandler@nethost.multnomah.lib.or.us  (503)241-2949

David,
Have you ever checked out Marillion (post Fish)? Their new singer, Steve
Hogarth has a set of gloves set up with triggers for percussion and
synth sounds (usually a piano sound). When he uses them in concert or
studio he can just hit the air with successive fingers and acheive the
desired result. Very interesting, and perhaps similar to what you are
doing. I know that his whole system is set up with piezo triggers (so I
am told)
Anyhow, might help shed some light on your project.
Andrew Younger
AYOUNGER@ac.dal.ca
PS Got the MIDI adapter in the mail a few weeks ago and it works great -
you are right it is a very small cicuit board!!
Thanks

------------------------------
End of the EMUSIC-L Digest
******************************