issue01

EMUSIC-L Digest                                      Volume 68, Issue 01

This issue's topics: Arnold Schoenberg, serial composition, listening recommendations
	
	Schoenberg (10 messages)
	Schoenberg and other things
	Schoenberg (5 messages)
	Schoenberg and other things
	Schoenberg (2 messages)
	12-tone: 12-tone composition
	Schoenberg
	Schoenberg and ELECTRONIC MUSIC
	Schoenberg
	Schoenberg and ELECTRONIC MUSIC
	Schoenberg
	Schoenberg and other things
	Schoenberg (2 messages)
	dodeo this and that
	Schoenberg
	dodeo this and that
	Schoenberg and the 12-tone system
	dodeo this and that (3 messages)
	Schoenberg and other things
	SCHOENBERG
	WAS SCHOENBERG
	12-tone: 12 tone encore (2 messages)
	12-tone: 12 barred? (2 messages)
	12 barred?
	12-tone: 12 barred? (3 messages)
	Grab bag (2 messages)
	Lessons from the crypt

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Date:         Fri, 16 Sep 1994 09:34:27 LCL
From:         Michael Carnes 
Subject:      Re: Schoenberg

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Don't know how we got onto Schoenberg on the Emusic list, but here's
two cents about 12-tone/serial music:  I absolutely love 20th century
concert music, but I feel that Schoenberg let his theoretical ideas
push him around rather than the other way.  Babbit even more so.  Why
don't you try some of the music of Luigi Dallapiccolo (Italian, mid-
century) or the Alban Berg (particularly the Violin Concerto or Lulu).
These guys had absolute command of their techniques but also had a highly
lyrical sense.  Neither one owned a synth.

------------------------------
Date:         Fri, 16 Sep 1994 10:07:09 +0000
From:         Jan Magnus Barber 
Subject:      Re: Schoenberg

         Hi Marc, hope this will help.....

              The base of *strict* twelve tone music is to start with a
         row, or series, of twelve chromatic tones. All twelve notes of the
         octave must be used in the row, and no tone may repeat itself
         before all are used. The row is then given metre/rythm. The
         further composition is based on inversions/variations of the
         original row.

              In a style called serialism the concept of series was taken
         even further - rythm and metre were also serialized - in a way an
         algorithm for each parameter in the music. These can be offset in
         relation to each other to create "endless variation". One of the
         famous Norwegian composers (who also wrote some stuff for the
         olympics) has written a piece of this sort that won't repeat
         itself for over 100 years!!


              magnus

------------------------------
Date:         Fri, 16 Sep 1994 11:04:28 FST
From:         "H. MARC" 
Subject:      Schoenberg

OK, composition:

     Is anybody out there a fan of Arnold Schoenberg's (hope I spelled that
right) music?  Anybody capable of explaining to me his 12-tone serial
composition method?  Has this ever been used for any electronic music?

..marc

------------------------------
Date:         Fri, 16 Sep 1994 08:53:58 -0400
From:         Joe McMahon 
Subject:      Re: Schoenberg

>      Is anybody out there a fan of Arnold Schoenberg's (hope I spelled that
> right) music?  Anybody capable of explaining to me his 12-tone serial
> composition method?  Has this ever been used for any electronic music?

One of the other very creditable serialists is Milton Babbitt. His
"Composition for Synthesizer", done on the Columbia-Princeton/Bell Labs
paper-tape-programmed synthesizer in the (early 70's? Help me out here,
folks!) is a twelve-tone piece - very listenable and interesting. I wish
Columbia would re-release the album it was on, on CD.

I've tried, Lord knows, to be interested in Schoenberg - but I've not hit
a piece of his I really like. I have not yet heard "Transfigured Night",
which is on the outer edges of tonality, but not really a twelve-tone
piece. It is an earlier piece, and I gather, not quite as forbidding as
say, "Variations for Orchestra", which is supposedly full of wonderful
abstract structures which unfortunately translate into a nap for me. :)

 --- Joe M.

------------------------------
Date:         Fri, 16 Sep 1994 09:22:36 -0400
From:         Mark G Simon 
Subject:      Re: Schoenberg

> OK, composition:
>
>      Is anybody out there a fan of Arnold Schoenberg's (hope I spelled that
> right) music?  Anybody capable of explaining to me his 12-tone serial
> composition method?  Has this ever been used for any electronic music?
>
> ..marc

If you can find any recordings of electronic music by Milton Babbitt,
they employ the kind of total serialism mentioned by Jan Magnus Barber in
his posting, where serial procedure is applied not just to notes but to
rhythms, dynamics, timbre etc. Babbitt found that live performers had a
bit of trouble (to put it mildly) performing this kind of music so he
tried to get the kind of extreme precision he wanted with synthesizers.
Some titles of Babbitt electronic pieces are: "Composition for
Synthesizer" (1961), "Vision and Prayer" for soprano and tape (1964),
"Philomel" for voice and tape (1964), "Ensemble" for synthesizer (1964),
"Correspondences" for string orchestra and tape (1967), "Reflections" for
piano and tape (1975), "Concerti for violin, small orchestra and tape"
(1976). I don't know how many of these are available on recordings. My
personal opinion of Babbitt is that his music sux (very academic. sounds
like random bleep-blops), but you should decide for yourself.

Mark Simon
mgs2@cornell.edu

------------------------------
Date:         Fri, 16 Sep 1994 08:36:44 CDT
From:         "Kevan L. Moore" 
Subject:      Re: Schoenberg

> ... My
> personal opinion of Babbitt is that his music sux (very academic. sounds
> like random bleep-blops), but you should decide for yourself.
>
> Mark Simon
> mgs2@cornell.edu
>

Folks, THIS is the kind of attitude we need on this list.  He's just described
in detail some interesting facts about this guy Babbitt (whose music i've never
 heard),
given his opinion about it in general, but welcomed us to decide for ourselves,
fully aware that somebody out there may actually like it. musical tastes are as
individual as, well, why do you think they call them 'tastes'?  if we had more
of this attitude there would be more intelligent & informative discussions and
less arguing and bickering about who killed who.

Mark, i applaud your explanation, opinion, and open-mindedness.

klm

------------------------------
Date:         Fri, 16 Sep 1994 16:16:33 +0100
From:         Stefan Scheffler 
Subject:      Re: Schoenberg

>OK, composition:
>
>     Is anybody out there a fan of Arnold Schoenberg's (hope I spelled that
>right) music?  Anybody capable of explaining to me his 12-tone serial
>composition method?  Has this ever been used for any electronic music?
>
>..marc
Explaination is a little bit tough, because it is a quite complex thing.
The fundamental idea behind is the fact, that there is a relation between
sound/pitch/time. Schoenberg at his time has formalized this relation based
somehow on the harmonics of the pitch, similar to the early works of Paul
Hindemith. (I am currently not sure whose work based on the other ones)
The result of the formulizing was that ALL western style pitches (therefore
12 tone) were used in a series. A pitch could only appear after certain
other pitch.
This approach was wident by his students Berg and Webern, and quite
extended after 1945 by the more modern composers like Berio, Stockhausen,
Boulez, Xenakis, Messiaen, Nono, etc. Just from the names you see that
12-tone/serial music is used in electronic music. In fact electronic music
is based on these technics, at least the one which derived from the Studio
for Electronic Music (Studio fuer Elektronische Musik) of Cologne. (I
should not forget John Cage and Edgar Varese here, because they did similar
things before 1945). Today the serial music is not that important anymore,
because it has such a high law and order attitude that it finally became
anarchic -> resulting into the aleatoric music movement.

If you want further information you should try to get a book on music
history of the 20th century. There is the one ftp site containing a list of
music bibliographics (ftp.cs.ruu.nl [131.211.80.17] in
pub/MIDI/DOC/bibliography).
You should search there for a start in english version of the books, I only
have german titles at hand now.

Ciao,
   Stefan

<> stefan@mms-gmbh.de
<> Stefan Scheffler, Software Development
<> Steinberg Soft- & Hardware GmbH
<> Cubase Lite/Score/Audio for Mac/Atari/Windows

------------------------------
Date:         Fri, 16 Sep 1994 11:53:09 -0400
From:         Mark G Simon 
Subject:      Re: Schoenberg

>
> I've tried, Lord knows, to be interested in Schoenberg - but I've not hit
> a piece of his I really like. I have not yet heard "Transfigured Night",
> which is on the outer edges of tonality, but not really a twelve-tone
> piece. It is an earlier piece, and I gather, not quite as forbidding as
> say, "Variations for Orchestra", which is supposedly full of wonderful
> abstract structures which unfortunately translate into a nap for me. :)
>
>  --- Joe M.

Schoenberg is definitely not for everyone's taste, but I actually like
his stuff for the most part. Probably the best introduction to his music
is through "A Survivor from Warsaw" and "Ode to Napoleon". In both works
the 12-tone music accompanies a spoken text in English, both are clearly
passionate responses to the rise of fascism and the holocaust
(Schoenberg, both as a Jew and as a "cultural bolshevik" as the Nazis
would call him, had to flee Germany when Hitler took power), and are very
dramatic and powerful statements. "Ode to Napoleon" gradually drifts into
E flat major at the end. I find his Piano Concerto very lyrical, not
really very far from Brahms.

My wife, no friend of atonal music, says Schoenberg is bad, but not
nearly as bad a lot of other modern composers.

Schoenberg and late Stravinsky are pretty much the only apostles of
12-tone music I'll sit through willingly. If you can get your hands on a
recording of Stravinsky's "Orchestra Variations" (there's probably only
been one recording and its long out of print) it's gotta be the
coolest-sounding 12 tone piece ever written.

Mark Simon
mgs2@cornell.edu

------------------------------
Date:         Fri, 16 Sep 1994 18:58:46 +0200
From:         Guy Van Belle 
Subject:      Re: Schoenberg

Marc:
I am reviewing a book by a certain Holzman, Digital Mantras. He deals
with this in a clear way. It is published by MIT Press. I will post the
review to this list, when it is finished.
 GuyZ.


On Fri, 16 Sep 1994, H. MARC wrote:

> OK, composition:
>
>      Is anybody out there a fan of Arnold Schoenberg's (hope I spelled that
> right) music?  Anybody capable of explaining to me his 12-tone serial
> composition method?  Has this ever been used for any electronic music?
>
> ..marc
>

------------------------------
Date:         Fri, 16 Sep 1994 11:02:25 -0600
From:         Bet my hair is longer than yours! 
Subject:      Re: Schoenberg

Marc wrote:
>     Is anybody out there a fan of Arnold Schoenberg's (hope I spelled that
>right) music?  Anybody capable of explaining to me his 12-tone serial
>composition method?  Has this ever been used for any electronic music?

I'm working with some of this right now myself.  (I'm still in the early
stages, so please bear with me...) Do you like math?  Do you like
mathematical puzzles?  Do you like Rubik's cubes?  I do, and I love
making music out of little "twists" of mathematical formulas and from
patterns of birds sitting on powerlines, and from telephone numbers, etc.
(OK, I admit it, I'm _twisted_!)

Anyway, twelve tone doesn't necessarily mean serial, and serial doesn't
necessarily mean twelve tone.  My definition of twelve tone music is
using all twelve chromatic tones.  My definition of serial is to use
all notes in a group (scale?) once before using any of them again.  So,
for example, playing an ascending Major scale over and over can be thought
of as serial music.

The simplest way to start with twelve tone music is to create a "melody"
line which includes all twelve notes, using each of them only once.  This
is called the Primary (P) form.  Then you figure out the Inversion (I),
the Retrograde (R) and the Retrograde Inversion (RI) form.  The I form is
basically an "upside-down" version of the P form.  (If an interval in the
P form goes up, the same interval in the I form goes down.)  The R form
is just the P form in reverse, and the RI form is the I form in reverse.
Then, once you have these four forms, you transpose each of them through
all twelve notes, with the result being 48 possible "rows" of notes.
Other things to do are to divide up the rows into two groups of six notes
("hexachords") or four groups of three ("trichords"), etc.  One interesting
way of working is to create a 12 note row by creating one trichord, then
including the inversion, retrograde and retrograde inversion of that trichord
in the 12 note row.  Once you have a row and its permutations, there are
several ways to use them.  The simplest is to use two separate rows and
play them note against note. ("Twelve Tone Counterpoint"...)  Rather than
waste any more bandwidth on this, check out a book by David Cope called
New Music Composition.  It seems to be an OK starting place.  Once you get
through that, I can suggest some other books...

Hmm, I may not know what I'm getting into here, but should I write up a
couple lessons about this?

-Doug

Doug Wellington
doug@sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov
System and Network Administrator
US Geological Survey
Tucson, AZ Project Office

According to proposed Federal guidelines, this message is a "non-record".
Hmm, I wonder if _everything_ I say is a "non-record"...

------------------------------
Date:         Fri, 16 Sep 1994 17:06:07 LCL
From:         Michael Carnes 
Subject:      Re: Schoenberg and other things

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Earlier in this thread, someone mentioned the music of Edgard Varese.
Varese's technique shared absolutely nothing with Schoenberg's (or any-
one else for that matter).  Perhaps to the new listener it might sound
a little the same.  For those who would like to hear some really early
uses of the synthesizer, look for a recording of "Ecuatorial" by Varese.
It features a vocal soloist (bass), a huge brass and percussion ensemble,
a pipe organ, and two Ondes Martenot.  The Ondes is one of the very first
synths, dating from the 1920s.  This music will really scare the neighbors.

------------------------------
Date:         Fri, 16 Sep 1994 10:57:00 -0700
From:         Peter Mueller 
Subject:      Re[2]: Schoenberg

On Fri, 16 Sep 1994, H. MARC wrote:

> OK, composition:
>
>      Is anybody out there a fan of Arnold Schoenberg's (hope I spelled that
> right) music?  Anybody capable of explaining to me his 12-tone serial
> composition method?  Has this ever been used for any electronic music?
>
> ..marc
>
Many people have mentioned Babbitt so far regarding electronic 12 tone music.
Another composer who has done so is Charles Wuorinen. You might also want to go
to the library a nd get his book "Simple Composition", which is written for
someone who is a beginning 12 toner, yet it's pretty thorough. There's lots and
lots of serial electronic music. You might want to find that old CRI record (not
CD) called "Columbia/Princeton Electronic Music Center, 10th Anniversary" (Maybe
try the Berkshire Record Outlet?) Or some the European stuff, L. Nono, for
example. Nono is real cool, very dramatic stuff.
By the way, I prefer Schoenberg's 12 tone to his tonal stuff, the Orchestral
Variations are both beautiful and exciting, although my fave of his is the
non-serial atonal music ("Erwartung" "String Quartet number 2", etc)
-Peter

------------------------------
Date:         Fri, 16 Sep 1994 14:43:00 EDT
From:         "william.b.fox" 
Subject:      Re: Schoenberg

Doug Wellington said:
> Hmm, I may not know what I'm getting into here, but should I write up a
> couple lessons about this?

Yes, please do.  I took all six quarters of music theory that Ohio State
had to offer, but I never could figure out how to get bass, melody, and
harmony from my 48 tone rows.

Bill Fox        wbf@aloft.att.com

------------------------------
Date:         Fri, 16 Sep 1994 18:51:00 GMT
From:         Gregory A Youngdahl +1 708 979 0013 
Subject:      Re: Schoenberg

Hi Doug (and all),

You wrote:
> Hmm, I may not know what I'm getting into here, but should I write up a
> couple lessons about this?

        Speaking for myself, I'd be very interested in anything you might
provide.  The stuff in your post was interesting, and I'll probably be
tinkering with your directions over the weekend.  I would like to see
anything else you can provide.

Thanks!
--
Greg Youngdahl    AT&T Bell Laboratories    Naperville, IL
greg@ihlpm.att.com

------------------------------
Date:         Fri, 16 Sep 1994 14:28:01 -0500
From:         Siberian Khatru 
Subject:      Re: Schoenberg

        Just for the record, Schoenberg's early output is very Romantic
(as in the style period...You know Schubert, Mendelssohn, Verdi), so you
will find that to much more accessible.  "Transfigured Night" is one of
the later pieces from this period of the composer's output.  You may also
want to check out "Pierre Lunaire", I haven't heard it (yet), but it is
supposed to be one of the landmark pieces of the 20th century.

Jon Southwood
jsouthwo@keller.clarke.edu


******************************************************************************
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four people died."-Steven Wright
"If I had only known, I would have been a locksmith."-Albert Einstein
"Truly great madness cannot be achieved without significant intelligence."
                                                        -Henrik Tikkanen
******************************************************************************

------------------------------
Date:         Fri, 16 Sep 1994 14:33:06 -0500
From:         Siberian Khatru 
Subject:      Re: Schoenberg

On Fri, 16 Sep 1994, Michael Carnes wrote:

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> Don't know how we got onto Schoenberg on the Emusic list, but here's
> two cents about 12-tone/serial music:  I absolutely love 20th century
> concert music, but I feel that Schoenberg let his theoretical ideas
> push him around rather than the other way.  Babbit even more so.  Why
> don't you try some of the music of Luigi Dallapiccolo (Italian, mid-
> century) or the Alban Berg (particularly the Violin Concerto or Lulu).
> These guys had absolute command of their techniques but also had a highly
> lyrical sense.  Neither one owned a synth.
>
        I second the recommendation of Berg!  There's a guy who was so in
control of atonal-ism that it actually sounds good (particularly
Lulu-which is an opera BTW- and the Violin Concerto).  Just for the
record, I'm far from a fan of the "pure" atonal ideal.

Jon Southwood
jsouthwo@keller.clarke.edu

------------------------------
Date:         Fri, 16 Sep 1994 16:09:27 -0400
From:         "L Mccoy (GD 1999)" 
Subject:      Schoenberg and other things

I'm delighted by the amount of time and thought given to Schoenberg on
this list.  Although not directly related to electronic music, his ideas
concerning 'liberating' the tones have affected, arguably, every composer.

It's important to note that there are 2 different types of serialism that
developed from Schoenberg's influence.  Following the war, there were
many who decided to extend Schoenberg's ideas to what they felt to be the
logical end.  Webernism became a fashionable term.  Many disavowed
Strauss, whom they referred to as "Hitler's boy", etc...  Schoenberg's
exodus to the US enabled him to experience completely different types of
musical development.  Here, there were no long-standing traditions.  And,
since most young American composers left America to study with European
teachers (worth researching is Nadia Boulanger's influence on Copland and
Carter - 2 composers who, on the surface, don't seem to share much in the
way of technique).

Back to serialism (pardon my digression, it's just that there are so many
interesting thoughts expressed on the list!!)  Babbitt developed
serialism in America around 1948, and, simultaneously, Boulez developed
his own in Europe.  Interestingly, his teacher, Olivier Messiaen, did not
suggest the serialism of pitch, but intensities, values, etc..  And,
also, Xenakis was disconcerted with what he felt to be the rather limited
and static character of serialism, asking "why limit the series to 12?"
X's music dealt more with large-scale phenomena and stochastics.  It is
inaccurate to align him with the serialists, but it is completely
accurate to say he was influenced by their work.  I've spent some time
with X's work, and have included many of his ideas into my own composition.

(can anyone tell me about the UPIC system?  is it available over here?)

Schoenberg remained extremely conservative throughout his lifetime.  The
short, aphoristic pieces were concerned more with fields and register
(ala Beethoven's experiments with the Piano) and were formalized along
traditional lines.  I'm particularly fond of Op.19 "Six little piano
pieces" that take a while.  This brings up the aesthetic issue of
repeated listenings vs. (or in conjunction with) first impressions.

Babbitt's experiments with 12-tone composition are much different than
Boulez' forays.  Note that Boulez' career for the past 20 years or so has
been spent conducting.  Stockhausen (another Messiaen pupil) has
continued to be active, and is writing an opera cycle that seems intended
to out-Wagner Wagner.  I think that Cage's visit to Europe around 1958
may be significant in understanding how and why the careers of Boulez and
Stockhausen have been so divergent.  I find Babbitt's music (especially
the 2nd String Quartet and his song "Du") to be pretty convincing.  Some
composers, like Morton Subotnik, have seemed to disappear.  But a seminal
recording is his "Silver Apples for the Moon".


XXXXX


I am interested in purchasing a computer for the first time.  I would
like to develop some compositional ideas involving sonic topography.
There are some programs that I've worked with (in various labs) that
approximate Pitch/Time graphs, but MIDI is getting pretty passe.  I need
to get a 486.  Anyone know where I can get a good one?  Also, am working
with CSound, and need to get a good sound card.  Have called Digital
Audio Labs, but would like to hear some comments from users on the list.
What have you found that works well for you?  etc...



Scott McCoy
mcco5@minerva.cis.yale.edu

------------------------------
Date:         Fri, 16 Sep 1994 16:31:02 -0400
From:         Thom 
Subject:      Re: Schoenberg

Okay, I guess I can wait no longer.  I adore the music of Arnold Schoenberg.
As Jon mentioned, the early works are of the romantic sort, pushing the
envelope of the German angst tradition.  Pieces such as "Palleas und
Mellisandre [sp?], take the blow Wagner took at tonality with "Tristan"
and blow the roof off of tonality and what an exciting roof blowing it
is!

Also, please check out the Opus 11 Piano Pieces (three) - here, Schoenberg
writes in free atonality with great affection for augmented fifths, tritones,
and minor thirds.

Pierrot Lunaire will blow what's left of your mind.

Ecstatic,

Thom

------------------------------
Date:         Fri, 16 Sep 1994 20:15:33 -0700
From:         Deborah Marte 
Subject:      Re: Schoenberg

Hi Marc:

As a matter of fact I am right now trying to compose a twelve tone
serial Jazz piece, which is going real well.

Basically, you must choose a twelve tone row...this means that using say
a keyboard, you would choose any twelve tones available from C to B.
These twelve tones cannot repeat themselves.  Those twelve tones can then
be used in your piece consecutively (do not repeat).  You may also set
those same twelve tones in a retrograde (backwards).  Then you could
invert both the original twelve tones, and the retrograde.  These 48
tones will then be used in their repective rows, as you wish.

Be careful though.  Without some rhythmic activity it can become stale,
and also, the tones will (just because you cannot repeat one in your row)
be rather avantguard sounding - rather like a spooky musical score.

It's a lot of fun, but if you still need more info you can email me.

Deborah
dmarte@coyote.csusm.edu

------------------------------
Date:         Sat, 17 Sep 1994 03:22:36 -0400
From:         "L Mccoy (GD 1999)" 
Subject:      12-tone composition

For the person who's writing the 12-tone piece (I haven't learned to
transfer names from the reading part to the writing part-please have
patience with the novice):

You might want to construct what's called, perhaps appropriately and,
hopefully with a sense of closure, a Babbitt Square.  This matrix will
give you all 48 forms of the row.  Prime reads left to right, Retrograde
right to left, Inversion top to bottom, Retrograde Inversion bottom to top.
If you use pitch names, you should have what some of the academics wryly
call the Babbitt diagonal, although it has nothing to do with Babbitt.
The same pitch name will "line-up" in the diagonal: top left to bottom right.

It's a convenient way of summing up the row forms, and allows you to make
some observations about structural implications for subsets (trichords,
tetrachords, hexachords, etc.)  Interestingly, Babbitt almost always
chooses to separate his hexachords by tritone; setting them apart as
tropes, of a sort.  If you substitute positive integers for pitches, and
then assign these to other parameters, then you get closer to what Boulez
has done.


By the way, I'm looking for a good recording of Boulez' "Structures Book 1a"
Can anyone tell me if there's a recording on disc?


And, a general THANKS! to all the people who sent me comments and
experiential feedback on hardware as I prepare to make a purchase.  I
will need to think about those points for a while.  I'm a little strange
in that lap-top computers sort of bug me.  There's this one cat in the
library who brings his, and when he types notes, the key-tapping is too
loud.  I'm convinced this is for show, as New Haven primarily exists for
show.  A silly question that I could research on my own, but, hey why not
ask the movers and shakers:  can one buy additional memory for a laptop?
and how cumbersome would this be?  I would most likely want to stick to
the desktop for the time being, but, as I think more about it, a laptop
would suggest interesting displacements.  Not exactly Beethoven walking
in the woods, but maybe typing code in the park....

Thanks again, people!
S.Mc.
mcco5@minerva.cis.yale.edu

------------------------------
Date:         Sat, 17 Sep 1994 04:17:04 -0700
From:         Patrick Lenneau 
Subject:      Re: Schoenberg

>>     Is anybody out there a fan of Arnold Schoenberg's (hope I spelled that
>>right) music?  Anybody capable of explaining to me his 12-tone serial
>>composition method?  Has this ever been used for any electronic music?
>
  I've been doing some of this in MAX. So far, my patches play two combinatorial
 voices where harmony can be split off into two more voices. Durations, dynamics
 and notes can be controlled serially. A type of score is possible utilizing a
 midi file to set the controls while the piece is composing/playing.

  The set-complex module can be opened to display the four set transformations
 in a set matrix. The set-complex is calculated when the prime set-form is
 entered. A command exists to determine the combinatoriality of a given set. If
 anyone's interested in further discussion of possible twelve-tone computer
 implementations, please e-mail me at ptl@crl.com .

BTW. I've seen someone use M to generate material for a serial comosition but I
 use it for minimalist pieces. I guess it's an eclectic algorithmic program.
 There's a joke in there somewhere but I couldn't find it.

Pat
    _____________________________________________________________________
  _/_____________________________________________________________________\_
 / |                                                                     | \
 | | And In This Corner:                                                 | |
<| | Originally from Alameda, CA fighting out of ptl@crl.com             | |>
 | | The Cyberweight Champion of the World... Patrick "AltoHorn" Lenneau | |
 \_|_____________________________________________________________________|_/
   \_____________________________________________________________________/

------------------------------
Date:         Sun, 18 Sep 1994 15:55:25 EDT
From:         Keith Bowers 
Subject:      Schoenberg and ELECTRONIC MUSIC

Mr. Schoenberg devised his "Method of Composing with 12 tones relating only
to themselves" as a reaction to the collapse of tonality and harmonic
relationships as the structural devices in western music. This collapse was
inevitable and has its roots in the acceptance of the rigid equal tempered
scale adopted circa JS Bach.

In his search to find a structuring element to replace harmonic relations,
Schoenberg, being a detail minded austrian, developed a system that was both
grounded in tradition (he was a very severe, conservative traditionalist type
personality) and revolutionary.

The method is traditional in that a single theme (row,set,order) provides the
generative material for an entire piece. Now this is totaly in line with the
concepts of Sonata form and the development of initial thematic material to
its utmost.

The method is revolutionary in that all references to tonal relations (octave
doubling, open fifths, half step voice leading in the upper register) are
avoided at all costs. Schoenberg made the break with tonality that others
(Wagner, Debussy, Scriabin) had been flirting with.

The method is NOT UNPRECIDENTED. 12 tone developement can be found in the
motets of the medevial masters, in Bach, in Wagner, even Franz Listz'
Falstaff symphony is built on a 12 tone theme (however all these use triadic
harmonic relationships that Schoenberg rejected).

WHAT ARE THE EXPRESSIVE LESSONS ELECTRONIC MUSICIANS CAN LEARN FROM THIS?


My opinions follow I look forward to reading your posts:

1. Schoenbergs statement that he had "discovered a method that will insure
the primacy of german music for a hundred years" was wrong. His method had
played itself out into academic prattle by the mid 60'S. Composers such as
John Cage , Earle Browne and Witold Lutislowski realized that the AURAL
EFFECT of 12 tone serialism could be created by indeterminate or chance
operations while freeing the musicians from the somewhat control obsessive
composer.  This involves asthetic and philoshopical issues that belong in
another post.

What Schoenberg has passed on to us is the method of creating unique self
generating sound fields. In computer controled music systems this is well
suited to the operation of the systems themselves.

EXAMPLE-
1.Play a melody into your sequencer using all 12 notes of the chromatic
scale.
2.Copy this melody and use the reverse function in your program (most have
these)
3.Play the two tracks back at once. You are listening to the row and its
retrograde.
4.Offset the two tracks by 2 beats and transpose the second track down 6 half
steps.
5.Playback the tracks- you are hearing the row(prime) and its retrograde
transposed  down a tritone (popular because it tends to destroy relationships
that may imply tonal functions) in canon (a favorite device of A.S.)
6. You are making 12 tone music>>>experiment >get busy

Opinion 2.

While 12tone structures by no means always generate the tension filled,
unsetteled emotional soundscape associated with this music (listen to Bergs
Violin Concerto) it lends itself readily to angst filled stress intervals
(maj7th, tritone, minor 2nds).
The unpopularity of much of what is ruefully refered to as 20th century music
exists in this unsettled comotion filled auralscape (and as well it probally
should the 20th century has been the most violent, change filled, un settled
century in our history) but it is precisley the never ending tension that
tends to "wear out your ears" and emotions by rejecting the stability of
tonal structures.

 Schoenberg cast himself (and his faithfull followers) on the ocean of
emotional upheavel with no sight of land (tonality). Brave man but ultimately
a futile effort.

 As it turns out Paul Hindemith's views on the use of tension and release
have much more validity in the historical longterm.

However we must honor Schoenberg for his creative will and the gifts of new
aural possibilities that he opened up for todays electronic musicians.

keithbowers@aol.com

------------------------------
Date:         Sun, 18 Sep 1994 19:01:24 EDT
From:         "Leo T. Nutley" 
Subject:      Re: Schoenberg

one can repeat notes or phrases if one wishes.  the thing is to establish the
twelve-tone format to the listener's expectations, that is, the expectation
of the 12'th tone as a closure to the phrase just as a dominant to tonic
movement would in more traditional music.

i've gone away from using twelve "tones" in the sense of using a strict row,
instead i am more interested in using an intervallic series, having a minor
6'th follow a major 2'nd and so forth.  inverting the row halfway through,
and incorporating other techniques to produce new notes and melodies.

'intervallic signatures' are two words that i'd like to use in a sentence
here to describe an aspect in listener cognition.

i think that the response that i'm after from a listener is "i have no idea
how we got to this point in the music, yet it makes complete sense".  that
is, to have the logic of the piece be more subliminal, the references between
phrases and movements more abstract, and still be engaging.

------------------------------
Date:         Mon, 19 Sep 1994 09:43:59 -0400
From:         Mark G Simon 
Subject:      Re: Schoenberg and ELECTRONIC MUSIC

> Mr. Schoenberg devised his "Method of Composing with 12 tones relating only
> to themselves" as a reaction to the collapse of tonality and harmonic
> relationships as the structural devices in western music. This collapse was
> inevitable and has its roots in the acceptance of the rigid equal tempered
> scale adopted circa JS Bach.

Maybe inevitable, in that someone was bound to think of it, but not
inevitable in that we as listeners have to accept it. History has by now
shown that audiences have given atonal music a resounding rejection,
especially the 12-tone variety. Schoenberg's own music has enough
inherent musicality that it's not likely to go away, even if it only
hovers on the fringes, and I think an awareness of atonality, that there
is an alternative to major and minor, changes your attitude towards
tonality. In my writing it has made me think of harmonic progressions
more in terms of chromatic linear motion, rather than simple I, IV, V,
etc. And if the music requires a special kind of tension, there's always
the possibility of slipping out of tonality.

In the future composers will regard atonality as a kind of 3rd mode,
along with major and minor. It would be a dull piece that stayed only in
major or minor keys, and IMHO it's a dull piece that stays only in
atonality.

>
> The method is NOT UNPRECIDENTED. 12 tone developement can be found in the
> motets of the medevial masters, in Bach, in Wagner, even Franz Listz'
> Falstaff symphony is built on a 12 tone theme (however all these use triadic
> harmonic relationships that Schoenberg rejected).

12-toners like to look for historic precedents to prove that their method
is the only way to go, but most of these don't really amount to a hill of
beans. And that's *Faust Symphony*, not Falstaff Symphony, although it is
possible that Liszt drank a few too many Falstaffs while composing it.

>
>
> EXAMPLE-
> 1.Play a melody into your sequencer using all 12 notes of the chromatic
> scale.
> 2.Copy this melody and use the reverse function in your program (most have
> these)
> 3.Play the two tracks back at once. You are listening to the row and its
> retrograde.
> 4.Offset the two tracks by 2 beats and transpose the second track down 6 half
> steps.
> 5.Playback the tracks- you are hearing the row(prime) and its retrograde
> transposed  down a tritone (popular because it tends to destroy relationships
> that may imply tonal functions) in canon (a favorite device of A.S.)
> 6. You are making 12 tone music>>>experiment >get busy

Schoenberg would no doubt have a good guffaw at this naive way of making
12 tone music. I don't think he ever played 2 row forms at once. Rather
he segmented his rows into hexachords (6-note groups) and constructed the
melody from one hexachord while using the other hexachord for harmony. In
some cases he decided in advance what the melody was going to be, row or
no row, and used the remaining pitches in the row for the harmony. Or
vice versa. There's one passage in Moses und Aron where the strings are
all bouncing around on their open strings (C, G, D, A, E) and the melody
consists of the pitches in the row that are left over.

Stravinsky, though, did often use more than one row form at a time. He
didn't come to dodecaphony until very late in life and his understanding
of it was probably not that sophisticated. Of course Stravinsky knew how
to break rules and get away with it. He had a strong personality, he knew
what he wanted and used the 12-tone method only insofar as it gave him
what he wanted.

>
> Opinion 2.

> exists in this unsettled comotion filled auralscape (and as well it probally
> should the 20th century has been the most violent, change filled, un settled
> century in our history)

a debatable point, given the various plagues, 100 year wars, papal
schisms, peasant revolts, etc. that have ravaged mankind. This is not a
subject for debate on this list though.


>  As it turns out Paul Hindemith's views on the use of tension and release
> have much more validity in the historical longterm.
>
> However we must honor Schoenberg for his creative will and the gifts of new
> aural possibilities that he opened up for todays electronic musicians.
>
And remember folks, you don't have to use all 12 tones to make use of the
handy "retrograde" and "invert" features on your sequencers! (obligatory
e-music content requirement now fulfilled).

Mark Simon
mgs2@cornell.edu

------------------------------
Date:         Mon, 19 Sep 1994 16:19:46 +0200
From:         Terje Winther 
Subject:      Re: Schoenberg

>OK, composition:
>
>     Is anybody out there a fan of Arnold Schoenberg's (hope I spelled=
 that
>right) music?  Anybody capable of explaining to me his 12-tone serial
>composition method?  Has this ever been used for any electronic=
 music?
>
>..marc


Y E S !

Sch=F6nberg is not one of my favorites as regard to contemporary=
 music, but I
like his music.

More than his music, though, I like his compositional groundbreaking=
 works.
There is a million (true - it is!) papers on Sch=F6nberg, on different=
 subjects.
The 12-tone method means working with the 12 chromatic tones orginized=
 in a
row, where none of the tones are repreated before all the others=
 are
played. This is of course the sceleton; there are a lot of methods=
 applied
to this 12-tone row.

Sch=F6nberg's methods have been developed further (serialism), and=
 the
techniques have even been used in electronic music.


(:  tw.

Terje Winther
Produksjonskonsulent/Producer
Ny Musikk / I.S.C.M.
(Norwegian section of the International Society for Contemporary=
 Music)
Ny Musikks Komponistgruppe / New Music Composers' Group
Tollbugata 28
N-0157  OSLO
Norway

E-mail: terje@notam.uio.no
Telephone: +47 2233 7090
Telefax:   +47 2233 7095

------------------------------
Date:         Mon, 19 Sep 1994 14:48:11 EDT
From:         "BARNES,LARRY J." 
Subject:      Re: Schoenberg and other things

To L McCoy re: Schoenberg, maybe you should join the Early Music list.
His style represents the end of tonality, not the beginning of anything
new. Attempts by composers to constantly rejuvinate mind games suggest
a search for real creativity and an ignorance of world music. So shoot
me.

------------------------------
Date:         Mon, 19 Sep 1994 15:06:54 -0400
From:         Thom 
Subject:      Schoenberg

>"Schoenberg, maybe you should join the Early Music list.
His style represents the end of tonality, not the beginning of anything
new. Attempts by composers to constantly rejuvinate mind games suggest
a search for real creativity and an ignorance of world music. So shoot
me."

Someone should shoot the above author for that grotesque display
of academic irresponsibility.  Forgive me, I know this is not place
for such expression but I would never have been able to sleep tonight
if i hadn't posted this publically.

TWC

------------------------------
Date:         Mon, 19 Sep 1994 15:23:25 -0500
From:         Joe McMahon 
Subject:      Re: Schoenberg

I'm sorry, both of you have fouled. Return to your neutral corners. Don't
come back out on this argument without specific details. Thank you.

 --- Joe M.

--
"This trumpet is flatlining!" (MST3K, "Mr. B. Natural")

------------------------------
Date:         Mon, 19 Sep 1994 17:01:01 EDT
From:         Keith Bowers 
Subject:      dodeo this and that

In response to an earlier post Mark Simon wrote while being forced to sing
all examples of combinatoriality in Weberns Sym OP21-

>In the future composers will regard atonality as a kind of 3rd mode,
along with major and minor.

****Yes and that future is probally already becoming the recent past. And
let's not forget the "modal" musics which encompass the majority of the
worlds musical cultures.

>12-toners like to look for historic precedents to prove that their method
is the only way to go, but most of these don't really amount to a hill of
beans. And that's *Faust Symphony*, not Falstaff Symphony, although it is
possible that Liszt drank a few too many Falstaffs while composing it.

****"12 toners" as a movement probally only still exist in the dark corners
of academia (maybe?)  and oopps! thanx for pointing out that Listz composed
the Faust Symphony and I (not Mr Listz) was guilty of too many (redhooks)
while composing the post!

>Schoenberg would no doubt have a good guffaw at this naive way of making
12 tone music. I don't think he ever played 2 row forms at once.

****He would and he did. Schoenberg felt anyone counting notes and looking
for combinatorial this and that was wasting time that could be used in
praising him for being such a emotional comunicative titan! The early forays
(Pierrot Lunaire, Suite Op. 11) into tone rows had some naive row constructs.
The 3rd and 4th quartets and the piano and violin concerto take the method to
realms (as you point out) of complexity and obscurity that only Webern would
be anal enough to try to plot!

>Stravinsky, though, did often use more than one row form at a time. He
didn't come to dodecaphony until very late in life and his understanding
of it was probably not that sophisticated.

****Stravinsky didnt touch dodecaphony till after Schoenbergs death, probally
fearing the comparison to AS. In fact Stravinsky who was as intuitive and
exhaustive a student of music both old and new as ever lived, had a very
sophisticated approach to dodecaphony as an examination of his Movements for
piano and orchestra will show. IS was probally more concered with being old
fashioned even before he was dead since AS's method was all the rage in
academic circles and trendy art groups at the time. (see Robert Craft's
discussion of IS's sudden attraction for "the method" after AS's death)

>And remember folks, you don't have to use all 12 tones to make use of the
handy "retrograde" and "invert" features on your sequencers! (obligatory
e-music content requirement now fulfilled).

****Just A somewhat well meant attempt to relate Schoenbergs accomplishments
to us today (and fulfill content requirements).

------------------------------
Date:         Mon, 19 Sep 1994 18:01:37 -0400
From:         Mark G Simon 
Subject:      Re: Schoenberg

> >"Schoenberg, maybe you should join the Early Music list.
> His style represents the end of tonality, not the beginning of anything
> new. Attempts by composers to constantly rejuvinate mind games suggest
> a search for real creativity and an ignorance of world music. So shoot
> me."
>
> Someone should shoot the above author for that grotesque display
> of academic irresponsibility.  Forgive me, I know this is not place
> for such expression but I would never have been able to sleep tonight
> if i hadn't posted this publically.
>
> TWC

Idunno. I thought it was an interesting point of view.

Mark Simon
mgs2@cornell.edu

------------------------------
Date:         Mon, 19 Sep 1994 18:15:48 -0400
From:         Mark G Simon 
Subject:      Re: dodeo this and that

> In response to an earlier post Mark Simon wrote while being forced to sing
> all examples of combinatoriality in Weberns Sym OP21-

Heavens, no! I don't think I ever want to go through that experience again.
>
>
> ****"12 toners" as a movement probally only still exist in the dark corners
> of academia (maybe?)

You'd be surprised. Some music depts. are veritable Jurassic Parks of
12-toners.

> ****Just A somewhat well meant attempt to relate Schoenbergs accomplishments
> to us today (and fulfill content requirements).

Mark Simon
mgs2@cornell.edu

------------------------------
Date:         Mon, 19 Sep 1994 20:13:41 -0500
From:         Burton Beerman 
Subject:      Schoenberg and the 12-tone system

Of course, there are many who would disagree with me, but I view the 12-tone
system as a malfunction and not a new musical function.  It represents the
final disintegration of the long functional period.  No tone is more important
than any other tone (or at least this is implied).  Tonality is by definition a
heirarchy.  Historically it is a significant development, but we do not whistle
its tunes in the streets as its early proponents predicted.  Again, after the
war and its out-of-control results composers from Europe desperately needed the
controls of total serialism.  I love much of the music of Scoenberg and
particularly Webern (op. 21, Symphonie, 24 the concerto, 27 the piano
variations, 29 nd 31 the cantatas/all dynamite works.  But their essense and
soul does not in its system.

------------------------------
Date:         Tue, 20 Sep 1994 09:41:58 LCL
From:         Michael Carnes 
Subject:      Re: dodeo this and that


Jurassic Parks of 12-toners, eh?  If they gave them any frog DNA, then
we're all in trouble...

------------------------------
Date:         Tue, 20 Sep 1994 16:00:56 +0200
From:         Klaus Neubauer 
Subject:      Re: dodeo this and that

> Jurassic Parks of 12-toners, eh?  If they gave them any frog DNA, then
> we're all in trouble...
>
>
 :-)    :-)    thanks for this stupid msg.

And thanks for all this interesting stuff about Schoenberg

Klaus

u1amo01.thor.dnet.basf-ag.de

------------------------------
Date:         Tue, 20 Sep 1994 10:18:01 EDT
From:         "william.b.fox" 
Subject:      Re: dodeo this and that

In reply to: <9409192216.AA19375@ursa-major.spdcc.com>, somebody I can't
identify said (with tongue held fimly in cheek):
> Jurassic Parks of 12-toners, eh?  If they gave them any frog DNA, then
> we're all in trouble...

(In the same spirit...)
If that happened, we'd be (a-hem) _knee deep_ in 12-toners.  Just don't
kiss any of them just to find a , er, I mean, a prince.

Bill Fox        wbf@aloft.att.com

------------------------------
Date:         Wed, 21 Sep 1994 17:55:54 -0400
From:         "L Mccoy (GD 1999)" 
Subject:      Re: Schoenberg and other things

Yes, well, perhaps the early music list would be engaging as well.  But,
is Schoenberg really the end of tonality?  Was it simply mind games?
I've often found that responses such as these tend to relegate the
consideration of pre-compositional tools to 'over-handling'.  I stand by
my contention that Arnie remained, formally, devoted to the early music.

The brevity of the pieces from the 20's and 30's signifies more an
extension rather than a break, in my view.

By the way, the 12-tone theme in Liszt's Faust symphony is not really a
precursor to 12-tone technique.  In that symphony, the 12-notes simply
spell out the 4 augmented triads, separated by a minor 2nd.  One can also
find this approach in Barber's Piano Sonata, 3rd mvmt., where he uses the
4 augmented triads as one 'row' and the 3 fully-diminished seventh chords
as another.  In that piece, Barber follows the basic rules, experimenting
but never leaving functional tonality.  Liszt, on the other hand,
utilized one of the augmented triads (the first) as tonal centers
throughout the symphony, and never considered 'liberating' the tones.

------------------------------
Date:         Thu, 22 Sep 1994 18:11:18 GMT
From:         JOEL STERN 
Subject:      SCHOENBERG

          Keith Bowers writes:
          >In his search to find a structuring element to replace harmonic
          >Schoenberg, being a detail minded austrian, developed a system t
          >grounded in tradition (he was a very severe, conservative tradit
          >personality) and revolutionary.


          Schoenberg was more than a "detail minded austrian
          sic
          ."  I  think  pathologically  superstitious  numerologist  better
          describes him. No reflection on  the value of  his music, much of
          which I enjoy (Pierrot Lunaire, Verklarte Nacht, (especially) the
          Chamber  Symphony,  etc.)  Nothing   didn't   have  numerological
          significance to this guy, and  the advent of  the  tone  row  and
          serialism wasn't unrelated to this propensity.

          Joel Stern
          stern@email.loc.gov

------------------------------
Date:         Fri, 23 Sep 1994 13:04:13 GMT
From:         JOEL STERN 
Subject:      WAS SCHOENBERG

          Leo Nutley wrote:
          >i think that the response that i'm after from a listener is "i h
          >how we got to this point in the music, yet it makes complete sen

          I'm  in complete agreement with  Leo  on  this. Knowledge of  the
          method  used  to  create  compositional  tension  and  resolution
          shouldn't  be  an overwhelmeing prerequisite for enjoyment  of  a
          piece, although it can enhance enjoyment to know "how we  got  to
          this point." I think Prokofiev is  a  good example of  a composer
          who  used  a personal tonal realtionship system  in  a  way  that
          carries  the listener pretty effortlessly along  with  the  music
          while some rather interesting things are going on.

          Joel Stern
          stern@email.loc.gov

------------------------------
Date:         Fri, 23 Sep 1994 14:29:40 +0000
From:         Jim Gardner 
Subject:      12 tone encore

Mark G Simon wrote
>History has by now
>shown that audiences have given atonal music a resounding rejection

Mark - I think you've shown a reasonably well-judged appraisal of
Schoenberg and pointed out, correctly, that Stravinskyand Webern (and I
would add Berg and Gerhard) wrote wonderful and *characteristic* music that
happened to use some form of twelve-tone writing.  I think, however, that
it's very dangerous to consider 'History' in such a monolithic way. Surely
history, and especially music history, is a more like a loose collection of
independently evolving and mutating threads.  OK we can laugh, quite
rightly, at the narrow-mindedness and short-sightedness at Boulez' early
pronouncements regarding the 'uselessness' of 'anyone who has not
felt...the necessity of the dodecaphonic language'  - this sort of artistic
authoritanarianism is clearly futile.  On the other hand I really think
that, given the vast array of viable alternatives to common practice
tonality that now co-exist, it's a mistake to package them up into one lump
with the convenient label 'history' and drag them to the trash, where they
may be seen to be temporary aberrations from the steamroller of officially
sanctioned 'progress'.  And where can I get a complete Buchla system for
$10?

Jim Gardner

I knit a woollen dove.  Its flight is sluggish.  Trouser-band fasteners,
for claws, hold it upright on most twigs.

------------------------------
Date:         Mon, 26 Sep 1994 09:31:30 -0400
From:         Mark G Simon 
Subject:      Re: 12 tone encore

> Mark G Simon wrote
> >History has by now
> >shown that audiences have given atonal music a resounding rejection
>
> Mark - I think you've shown a reasonably well-judged appraisal of
> Schoenberg and pointed out, correctly, that Stravinskyand Webern (and I
> would add Berg and Gerhard) wrote wonderful and *characteristic* music that

Well, I never said anything nice about Webern. His scores are ingeniously
constructed but they still sound like sh-- IMHO.

> happened to use some form of twelve-tone writing.  I think, however, that
> it's very dangerous to consider 'History' in such a monolithic way. Surely
> history, and especially music history, is a more like a loose collection of
> independently evolving and mutating threads.  OK we can laugh, quite
> rightly, at the narrow-mindedness and short-sightedness at Boulez' early
> pronouncements regarding the 'uselessness' of 'anyone who has not
> felt...the necessity of the dodecaphonic language'  - this sort of artistic
> authoritanarianism is clearly futile.  On the other hand I really think
> that, given the vast array of viable alternatives to common practice
> tonality that now co-exist, it's a mistake to package them up into one lump
> with the convenient label 'history' and drag them to the trash, where they
> may be seen to be temporary aberrations from the steamroller of officially
> sanctioned 'progress'.  And where can I get a complete Buchla system for
> $10?

Tonality, like all things, will continue to evolve. 21st century tonality
will sound different than 20th century tonality, which sounds quite
different than 19th century tonality. You ask a jazz musician and a
traditional Rameau-oriented theorist to explain harmony and you'll get
two completely different stories. Jazz has its own "common practice"
tonality, one completely characteristic of its own time, which is the
20th century. I have no doubt that the other "viable alternatives" you
mention will also have their effect. Of course neither you nor I have the
authority to dictate what direction music will go, no more than Boulez
did. The only people with that authority are the ones that sit in the
audience. And the fact is that more that 80 years after the introduction
of atonlity, most scores by Webern, Schoenberg and Berg are still a
*very* hard sell.

For what it's worth, I have my own pet alternative system of harmony. The
first 3 rules are: Never use it to the exclusion of anything else. Never
feel compelled to use it at all unless you feel its use is warranted.
Avoid at all costs the temptation to formulate absolute rules about it.

Mark Simon
mgs2@cornell.edu

------------------------------
Date:         Tue, 27 Sep 1994 12:27:57 +0000
From:         Jim Gardner 
Subject:      12 barred?

Mark - I'm very interested to continue this discussion, but suspect that
most EMUSIC subscribers are bored shitless by it.  So I'll transfer my
comments direct to you - unless Joe thinks we shold keep this one going in
public, of course...

Amicably

Jim Gardner

------------------------------
Date:         Tue, 27 Sep 1994 09:19:08 EDT
From:         "william.b.fox" 
Subject:      Re: 12 barred?

Jim Gardner said:
> Mark - I'm very interested to continue this discussion, but suspect that
> most EMUSIC subscribers are bored shitless by it.  So I'll transfer my
> comments direct to you - unless Joe thinks we shold keep this one going in
> public, of course...

If you are referring to the thread on 12 tone music (et al), then please
continue in public.

Bill Fox        wbf@aloft.att.com

------------------------------
Date:         Tue, 27 Sep 1994 12:34:00 -0700
From:         Peter Mueller 
Subject:      Re[2]: 12 barred?

>Jim Gardner said:
>> Mark - I'm very interested to continue this discussion, but suspect that
>> most EMUSIC subscribers are bored shitless by it.  So I'll transfer my
>> comments direct to you - unless Joe thinks we shold keep this one going in
>> public, of course...
>
>If you are referring to the thread on 12 tone music (et al), then please
>continue in public.
>
>Bill Fox        wbf@aloft.att.com

"I concur - it's been a very interesting thread, *especially* the listening
recommendations. I believe that Brubeck's "The Duke" has a twelve-tone row
in the bassline in its A section. Brubeck didn't notice it until someone
pointed it out to him."

 --- Joe M.

I also agree. I think its one of the more interesting discussions going.
I might be wrong, but somewhere in the back of mind there's a vague memory of
someone (Stockhausen?) using serial proceedures with his filtering. I must not
have thought much of it though, or I'd remember it better.
See. this does have to do with E-music.
-Peter M

------------------------------
Date:         Tue, 27 Sep 1994 15:03:22 -0500
From:         Joe McMahon 
Subject:      Re: 12 barred?

>Jim Gardner said:
>> Mark - I'm very interested to continue this discussion, but suspect that
>> most EMUSIC subscribers are bored shitless by it.  So I'll transfer my
>> comments direct to you - unless Joe thinks we shold keep this one going in
>> public, of course...
>
>If you are referring to the thread on 12 tone music (et al), then please
>continue in public.
>
>Bill Fox        wbf@aloft.att.com

I concur - it's been a very interesting thread, *especially* the listening
recommendations. I believe that Brubeck's "The Duke" has a twelve-tone row
in the bassline in its A section. Brubeck didn't notice it until someone
pointed it out to him.

 --- Joe M.

--
"At the end of the hour, we'll have information on the sedatives used by
the artists,,," (MST3K)

------------------------------
Date:         Tue, 27 Sep 1994 16:53:39 -0500
From:         Brian Good 
Subject:      Re: 12 barred?

Joe M writes:

> >Jim Gardner said:

> >>So I'll transfer my
> >> comments direct to you - unless Joe thinks we shold keep this one going in
> >> public, of course...
> >
> >If you are referring to the thread on 12 tone music (et al), then please
> >continue in public.
> >
> >Bill Fox        wbf@aloft.att.com
>
> I concur - it's been a very interesting thread, *especially* the listening
> recommendations. I believe that Brubeck's "The Duke" has a twelve-tone row
> in the bassline in its A section. Brubeck didn't notice it until someone
> pointed it out to him.

The few jazz pieces I know of that use rows at all really use them
outside the spirit of dodecaphony.  While a melody may be derived from
a row, it's usually harmonized conventionally.  Rather than destroying
any sense of tonality, this usually results in music that sounds only
a little more abstract than straighforward tonality.  Examples:
Bill Evans' "Twelve Tone Tune" uses a row as its melody but is
harmonized conventionally.  Or (*really* obscure reference
warning) Lou Marini's piece "Codify" that he did while at North Texas
State (you may remember him as "Blue Lou" in "The Blues Brother").  It
uses an 11-note row as its melody (with repetition), with the 12th
note in the bass.  It's not at all dodecaphonic, either--it's built on
a blues with a modified turnaround.

brian good
nasa lerc

------------------------------
Date:         Tue, 27 Sep 1994 17:32:57 -0500
From:         Joe McMahon 
Subject:      Re: 12 barred?

>Or (*really* obscure reference
>warning) Lou Marini's piece "Codify" that he did while at North Texas
>State (you may remember him as "Blue Lou" in "The Blues Brother").  It
>uses an 11-note row as its melody (with repetition), with the 12th
>note in the bass.  It's not at all dodecaphonic, either--it's built on
>a blues with a modified turnaround.

Hmmmm... I can see that. Sounds like fun.

 --- Joe M.

--
"At the end of the hour, we'll have information on the sedatives used by
the artists..." (MST3K)

------------------------------
Date:         Wed, 28 Sep 1994 10:17:28 +0000
From:         Jim Gardner 
Subject:      Grab bag

readers

So - I misjudged the interest in our dodecaphonic thread.  Good!  Watch
this space! (I'm very busy at the moment)

John Shaft (!?) wrote:
>I also seem to remember seeing some Mac sound processing software from
>the IRCAM web page (I cant recall the address, though i think it's like
>http://www.ircam.fr/).

You may be referring to the BOL Processor. I was able to download some
information about it, but I was denied access to the program itself, which
suggests that either i) I screwed up or ii) it costs *money*
Does anyone else know the secret?

>I might be wrong, but somewhere in the back of mind there's a vague memory of
>someone (Stockhausen?) using serial proceedures with his filtering. I must not
>have thought much of it though, or I'd remember it better.
>See. this does have to do with E-music.
>-Peter M

Well that's a whole can of worms. If you've ever seen the realisation score
of 'Kontakte', you'll have seen the extraordinarily detailed notes about
filtering, oscillator frequencies, tape speeds, tape edit lengths, reverb
times and so forth. Given  KS' preoccupations at the time,  I'd be very
surprised if some of these parameters weren't subjected to some serial
procedures, but I don't have any hard evidence to hand (short of wading
through all the notes and finding patterns !!). There may be something
about this in the more recent interviews with and books about KS. I still
reckon it's the best piece of 'classical' EM I've heard - regardless of its
methodological skeleton.

Brendan McEnroe wrote:
>Is there a Cubase users group?
>If so what is the email address.

This has been answered, but last night I noticed a new Usenet group:
alt.steinberg.cubase
No postings so far, but I'm sure it won't stay like that for long

Cheers

Jim

------------------------------
Date:         Wed, 28 Sep 1994 10:15:13 -0500
From:         Joe McMahon 
Subject:      Re: Grab bag

>John Shaft (!?) wrote:

wocka-chicka-wocka-chicka-wocka-chicka...

>Well that's a whole can of worms. If you've ever seen the realisation score
>of 'Kontakte', you'll have seen the extraordinarily detailed notes about
>filtering, oscillator frequencies, tape speeds, tape edit lengths, reverb
>times and so forth. Given  KS' preoccupations at the time,  I'd be very
>surprised if some of these parameters weren't subjected to some serial
>procedures, but I don't have any hard evidence to hand (short of wading
>through all the notes and finding patterns !!). There may be something
>about this in the more recent interviews with and books about KS....

Yes, I have something which is a series of interviews which contains a fair
amount of information about what Stockhausen was up to in Kontakte. Turns
out that he had set up a series of "scales" in rhythm, pitch, and broadness
of note spectrum and used these structures to come up with the overall
structure of Kontakte. There is one section which he describes as
multilayered in that he strips away one layer of sound to reveal another
hidden "behind" it, and then again a minute or two later to reveal another.

 --- Joe M.

--
"At the end of the hour, we'll have information on the sedatives used by
the artists,,," (MST3K)

------------------------------
Date:         Wed, 28 Sep 1994 14:25:05 EDT
From:         Keith Bowers 
Subject:      Lessons from the crypt

Now that the12tone masterworks have joined the realm of the toothless museum
pieces,   academic prattiling over the recall of obscure/arcane factoids
related to the surface characteristics of these works serves little to help
us half a century later.

The Schoenbergian delemia is that his works are tremendous monoliths of the
western constructivist tradition which failed their creator's prime
intention: to communicate the emotional upheaval of their times and to
project from the specific period of creation to an imagined future audience
those aspects of the work which transcend its own time period. As the works
of Beethoven are said to be sucessful,and continue to be performed, because
the works communicate larger human issues that transcend the period specfic
to its creation.

Now while this might sound like Sartreian smokeblowing, Stravinsky would
blink and scowl saying "Music is incapable of communicating anything at all !
".
perhaps that is why so few of his scores are regularly performed.

If paragraph 2 has any validity then we may ask what can we learn from
Schoenberg's faliure?

I have come to these conclusions -

#1. Rhythmic and temporal relationships are more structurally important than
harmonic relationships. (The Schoenbergian school is a treasure trove of
rhythmic possibilities)

#2. Melodic constucts are best understood by the listner when they are
modeled on the rhythmic and tonal inflections of the human voice. (see #1)

#3 Overly self referential works are ultimately doomed to a response of
indifference from the listner (angst ridden tragi-posing wears out the
audience quickly and only works for pop formulas which have a fresh cycle of
self obsessed post adolescents every five years who spend vast sums of money
to be told how tragic their lot in the world is)

These are general observations and perhaps abit superficial (still on first
cup of coffee this morn) it has nothing to do with emusic except that I have
been booting up the studio while sending this post.

  .

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End of the EMUSIC-L Digest
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