issue06

EMUSIC-L Digest                                      Volume 68, Issue 06

This issue's topics: Distortion as a musical tool
	
	destroying vocals (8 messages)
	distorting vocals...
	destroying vocals (2 messages)
	Rudy Valley [sic]
	distorting vocals...
	destroying vocals (5 messages)
	Vocals and Bing
	destroying vocals (3 messages)
	adding distortion to vocals
	destroying vocals (4 messages)

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Date:         Wed, 14 Sep 1994 10:09:10 MST
From:         "Trent Hare GD.Flagstaff 602556-7245" 
Subject:      destroying vocals

    I need a processor to apply to my vocals.  The problem is, I want
to use distortion.  Most good vocal processors do not have any distortion
and most processors that have distortion are for guitars.  I have tried
a variety of setups (distortion processors, distortion pedals, vocal
processors w/ a distortion pedal).  Anyways whenever I use a processor
with distortion for my vocals, it is really hard to keep out the feedback
at loud volumes.  If you have any suggestion for processors or how I
could get rid of the feedback (I've tried everything I could think of),
I would forever in your debt.  Well maybe for a few seconds =:)

                                        thanks,
                                                thare

------------------------------
Date:         Wed, 14 Sep 1994 13:02:45 -0500
From:         Arne Claassen ISE 
Subject:      Re: destroying vocals

>     I need a processor to apply to my vocals.  The problem is, I want
> to use distortion.  Most good vocal processors do not have any distortion
> and most processors that have distortion are for guitars.  I have tried
> a variety of setups (distortion processors, distortion pedals, vocal
> processors w/ a distortion pedal).  Anyways whenever I use a processor
> with distortion for my vocals, it is really hard to keep out the feedback
> at loud volumes.  If you have any suggestion for processors or how I
> could get rid of the feedback (I've tried everything I could think of),
> I would forever in your debt.  Well maybe for a few seconds =:)

The best, warm type of distortion i have ever gotten for vocals was out of an
old analog mixer. I recorded the vocals onto the four-track hot, then ran
the signal back throught he board with gain on high and volume low. Beautiful
distortion. Of course, having an old mixer on hand just for distortion is kind
of overkill and my Mackie1202 just won't distort, damnit.

I've found that analog distortion is the best for vocals. Have you tried
overdriving an old tube amp, such as in some guitar cabinets. That's pretty
effective, too.

--
Arne F. Claassen             
On the Web:           
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Somebody's got his finger on a DX7!"                             

------------------------------
Date:         Wed, 14 Sep 1994 14:10:59 EDT
From:         "william.b.fox" 
Subject:      Re: destroying vocals

Thare thought thusly:
> I need a processor to apply to my vocals.  The problem is, I want
> to use distortion.  Most good vocal processors do not have any distortion
> and most processors that have distortion are for guitars.  I have tried

To the best of my knowledge, I've never heard vocals that were
intentionally distorted.  And whenever I head distorted vocals
(intentional or not), I didn't find it to my liking.

1.  Can you cite an example where you've heard (intentionally) distorted
vocals that you particularly like?  I'd like to hear this for myself to
understand what you're trying to achieve and to see if I might like it.

>                                ...  Anyways whenever I use a processor
> with distortion for my vocals, it is really hard to keep out the feedback
> at loud volumes.

2. Is this a live application?  In many small venues, I've been known to
turn off my PA's spring reverb to avoid feedback.  I suppose I could
patch in a microverb to replace it's internal reverb in case the
feedback is mechanically induced.  But I don't see how this is related
to your problem.  Can you send your vocal via an effects send to the
distortion device available to you and then control feedback and
distortion amount via the effects return volume?

What sort of solution is valid for your situation.  If I said that I
think I recall that the Ensoniq DP/4 can do distorion, are you willing
to buy one of these beasties?  Have you tried a 12AX7 tube type
overdrive for a slightly distorted sound?  Good luck.

Bill Fox        wbf@aloft.att.com

------------------------------
Date:         Wed, 14 Sep 1994 11:28:39 MST
From:         "Trent Hare GD.Flagstaff 602556-7245" 
Subject:      Re: destroying vocals

Let me see, some artists that use distorted vocals:  Nine Inch Nails,
Skinny Puppy, My Life with the Thrill Kill Kult, KMFDM ....
there are tons out there, mainly in the industrial scene.

I don't use the distortion for every word, just to add impact
at certain points during the song.

Let me give you some more facts, this would be for live
performances so the processor would have to midi-fied (I
need to change the patches) and I do use an effects
send/return loop from the mixer.  I haven't tried many
top of the line processors because I just can't afford them
but if there is a good one out there I may be able to dig
deep for it.

                                thanks for the help
                                        thare

------------------------------
Date:         Wed, 14 Sep 1994 14:29:46 -0400
From:         Thom 
Subject:      Re: destroying vocals

If you can find one, the Ibanez Tube Screamer is great for adding a
little edge to your voice.  [it is an old green stomp box].  I've
used it for a couple of tracks and loved the results.  You can set
the feedback very low and increase the harmonic spectrum ever so
slightly thus not destroying the vocals

------------------------------
Date:         Wed, 14 Sep 1994 15:36:10 EDT
From:         "william.b.fox" 
Subject:      Re: destroying vocals

Thare,

Thanks for the list of artists who use distorted vocals.  I'd like to
check them out but the library systems in my area suck when it comes to
quantity and variety of CDs.  But I'll keep my eyes peeled.  (What a
VISUAL that is!)

> I don't use the distortion for every word, just to add impact
> at certain points during the song.
> Let me give you some more facts, this would be for live
> performances so the processor would have to [be] midi-fied (I
> need to change the patches)

I've noticed that switching processor setups invariably involves a
delay between the MIDI Program Change command and the new patch taking
effect.  You might want to set up a patch where the distortion amount can
be modulated via MIDI or a directly connected foot pedal.  In this way,
you can "pedal on" where you need the distortion and then "pedal off"
without any MIDI Program Changes.  Just so long as pedalling doesn't
cause any zipper noise, you'll be A-OK.

Bill Fox        wbf@aloft.att.com

------------------------------
Date:         Wed, 14 Sep 1994 14:46:43 -0500
From:         Joe McMahon 
Subject:      Re: destroying vocals

>    I need a processor to apply to my vocals.  The problem is, I want
>to use distortion.  Most good vocal processors do not have any distortion
>and most processors that have distortion are for guitars.  I have tried
>a variety of setups (distortion processors, distortion pedals, vocal
>processors w/ a distortion pedal).  Anyways whenever I use a processor
>with distortion for my vocals, it is really hard to keep out the feedback
>at loud volumes.  If you have any suggestion for processors or how I
>could get rid of the feedback (I've tried everything I could think of),
>I would forever in your debt.  Well maybe for a few seconds =:)
>
>                                        thanks,
>                                                thare

If I remember correctly, one of the best ways is to overload your mic
preamp (for that really raw distorted thing). Optionally, you could build a
clipper box - I probably have a schematic somewhere, but I have no idea
where right now - it's just a few diodes and a couple of jacks.


 --- Joe M.

--
"This trumpet is flatlining!" (MST3K, "Mr. B. Natural")

------------------------------
Date:         Thu, 15 Sep 1994 10:07:04 +0100
From:         GREENA 
Subject:      Re: destroying vocals

>> Intentionally distorting vocals
I've just read the mails on distoring vocals and can think of at least 4
bands who have done this.  The Pixies, The Fall, The Breeders, The Boo Radleys.
        There's a lot of bands in England who sing through megaphones just
for the distortion it gives on the vocal ( Didn't David Byrne do this as well?).
Of course this isn't to the taste of your average pop picker - but I like it.

I put my vocals through a flange and overdrive setting on the Quadraverb GT -
not all the time - but it's sometimes a last resort when I cant get the song
to sound good any other way. I think, "Bollocks to it I'll distort it and leave
it at that. "
ANdy
Greena@bbsrc.ac.uk

------------------------------
Date:         Thu, 15 Sep 1994 09:41:26 FST
From:         "H. MARC" 
Subject:      distorting vocals...

Are you thinking along the lines of Skinny Puppy?...marc















------------------------------
Date:         Thu, 15 Sep 1994 06:02:12 EDT
From:         Tommy Lipnick 
Subject:      Re: destroying vocals

ANdy
Greena@bbsrc.ac.uk wrote;

>> Intentionally distorting vocals
I've just read the mails on distoring vocals and can think of at least 4
bands who have done this.  The Pixies, The Fall, The Breeders, The Boo
Radleys.

I think he forgot on of the most copied and original of the bands that used
that sound on the vocals, which would be 'Ministry'

------------------------------
Date:         Thu, 15 Sep 1994 09:16:45 EDT
From:         "william.b.fox" 
Subject:      Re: destroying vocals

ANdy (Greena@bbsrc.ac.uk) said:
> There's a lot of bands in England who sing through megaphones just for the
> distortion it gives on the vocal (Didn't David Byrne do this as well?).

Rudy Valley did that is the '20s.  How's THAT for being ahead of your
time?  (Please check my spelling and verify the time frame; but you get
the idea.)  And thanks, everybody, for the examples cited.

Bill Fox        wbf@aloft.att.com

------------------------------
Date:         Thu, 15 Sep 1994 11:57:36 -0400
From:         Mark G Simon 
Subject:      Re: Rudy Valley

> Who is Rudy Valley?  Just curious....marc

Actual name: Rudy Vallee. Bandleader and crooner from the 1930's, and
major heartthrob for teenage girls of the era. His use of the megaphone
seems to be a holdover from pre-microphone days, which is interesting,
because pop music historians usually write that the "crooning" style of
singing, today most characteristically associated with Bing Crosby, was
only made possible by the introduction of the microphone because it was
done without the kind of diaphragm support traditionally used by opera
singers (and in fact all singers in the acoustic age) to be heard over
large orchestras.

You probably never thought of Bing Crosby as an electronic musician.
Some of you may have never thought of Bing Crosby as a musician.

Mark Simon
mgs2@cornell.edu

------------------------------
Date:         Thu, 15 Sep 1994 09:05:53 MST
From:         "Trent Hare GD.Flagstaff 602556-7245" 
Subject:      Re: distorting vocals...

Skinny Puppy would be a good example.

------------------------------
Date:         Thu, 15 Sep 1994 15:13:17 -0500
From:         Brian Good 
Subject:      Re: destroying vocals

>
>     I need a processor to apply to my vocals.  The problem is, I want
> to use distortion.  Most good vocal processors do not have any distortion
> and most processors that have distortion are for guitars.  I have tried
> a variety of setups (distortion processors, distortion pedals, vocal
> processors w/ a distortion pedal).  Anyways whenever I use a processor
> with distortion for my vocals, it is really hard to keep out the feedback
> at loud volumes.  If you have any suggestion for processors or how I
> could get rid of the feedback (I've tried everything I could think of),
> I would forever in your debt.  Well maybe for a few seconds =:)

Are you looking for distortion in the guitar-hero sense or something more
twisted?  I'm about to spend several days with a Lexicon Vortex.  I
won't be processing vocals with it since my singing voice is plenty
distorted and offensive without electronic processing of any kind.
I will be using it with an Akai EWI and a soprano sax (hoping it
will sound like Jane Ira Bloom in a bar fight).  If it sounds half
as weird as some of its patch names, I'll probably keep it (what
does BLEEN stand for, anyway?  Bleeding spleen?).  If anything
interesting happens, I'll post.

brian good
nasa lerc

------------------------------
Date:         Thu, 15 Sep 1994 12:24:39 PST
From:         "Roger I. Ramnath" 
Subject:      Re[2]: destroying vocals

>> Intentionally distorting vocals

I've seen Stone Temple Pilots use the megaphone trick in concert, and also in
concert by The The (and on their release "Dusk" - wonderful album).

Roger

------------------------------
Date:         Thu, 15 Sep 1994 16:57:54 -0500
From:         Arne Claassen ISE 
Subject:      Re: destroying vocals

> I think he forgot on of the most copied and original of the bands that used
> that sound on the vocals, which would be 'Ministry'

I believe Skinny Puppy and others had done it before Ministry had found its way
out of disco. (no, i'm not trying to insult Ministry, i'm just refering to the
first album, 'with sympathy').

And if i offended anyones Ministry fandom, i'm a fan myself and will accept
flames via email only.

ObligSynthContent: For those interested in recreating the Ministry type
distortion, i do believe that Al uses a lot of compression on top of whatever
distortion mechanism he uses for.

--
Arne F. Claassen             
On the Web:           
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Somebody's got his finger on a DX7!"                             

------------------------------
Date:         Thu, 15 Sep 1994 19:54:03 -0500
From:         Siberian Khatru 
Subject:      Re: destroying vocals

        It seems that everyone is forgetting about King Crimson's "21st
Century Schizoid Man".  I believe that it appears on the album "In the
Court of the Crimson King" which was released either '69 or '70 (not
sure).  Anyway, it seems to me that this pre-dates most of the examples
given (except about the 'crooner' from the 30's) and it contains killer
distorted vocals by Greg Lake (pre-ELP, of course).

Jon Southwood
jsouthwo@keller.clarke.edu

P.S.  If a similar message was already received, I apologize--I sent out
a similar message a couple days ago, but I got a return from the server
saying that it won't forward blank messages....hmmmm...very strange.

******************************************************************************
"I once played poker with a deck of tarot cards. I got a full house and
four people died."-Steven Wright
"If I had only known, I would have been a locksmith."-Albert Einstein
"Truly great madness cannot be achieved without significant intelligence."
                                                        -Henrik Tikkanen
******************************************************************************

------------------------------
Date:         Thu, 15 Sep 1994 20:47:00 -0700
From:         jk 
Subject:      Re: destroying vocals

King Crimson.....yes totally.......wonderful example.    And was it also
on U.S.A.?  Great album.  The distorted vocals were very musical.
-john
JKRIKAWA@CCIT.Arizona.Edu

------------------------------
Date:         Fri, 16 Sep 1994 10:54:24 -0400
From:         James Driggers 
Subject:      Re: Vocals and Bing

        On distorting vocals:

           Besides using a fuzz box or pre-amp overload, singing
        (shouting?) through the ear-piece of some types of
        headphones will distort the vocal nicely. Just plug the
        phones in the input jack.  Also using some type of noise
        gate will give the the vocal a "clipped" sound and will
        provide a great contrast to the edgy vocal part and complete
        silence.

        On Bing Crosby as an electronic musician:

           We should give ol' Bing more credit here.  He was
        actually a driving force behind the development of the
        magnetic tape recording medium.   Of course he probably
        had no idea about the technical workings involved, he
        was just eager to record his radio show (this is mid 1940's,
        I think) and then edit out the "fat", so every minute of it
        would be close to top standard and he could release copies
        of it to many radio stations around the globe.  Before Bing,
        the audio quality of magnetic tape was fine for talk radio,
        but wasn't used for music because too many people would know
        it wasn't "live". Because of his fame and clout, he gave the
        recording industry a push technologically and thus probably paved
        the way to recording geniuses like Les Paul.  By the way,
        I'm not really a big Crosby fan!  I've been told by someone
        who worked with him that he was actually a self-centered jerk.
        But we can now thank him for his greediness and his laziness!


        Jim Driggers
        

        "Musician, philosopher, beer-drinker."

------------------------------
Date:         Fri, 16 Sep 1994 10:37:38 -0700
From:         atomic city 
Subject:      Re: destroying vocals

william.b.fox jotteth....
>
>Thare thought thusly:
>> I need a processor to apply to my vocals.  The problem is, I want
>> to use distortion.  Most good vocal processors do not have any distortion
>> and most processors that have distortion are for guitars.  I have tried
>
>To the best of my knowledge, I've never heard vocals that were
>intentionally distorted.  And whenever I head distorted vocals
>(intentional or not), I didn't find it to my liking.
>
>1.  Can you cite an example where you've heard (intentionally) distorted
>vocals that you particularly like?  I'd like to hear this for myself to
>understand what you're trying to achieve and to see if I might like it.

Greg Lake's voical on 21st Century Schizoid Man from the first King Crimson
album, and several tracks by Nine Inch Nails, come to mind, as well as
"The Charm of Making" off my first album (now long o.o.p); it can be
grating if overused but very effective in small doses.

--
mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * atomic@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Oh drat, these computers are so naughty and so complex,
 I could just PINCH them."                                  (m. t. martian)

------------------------------
Date:         Fri, 16 Sep 1994 16:58:06 -0700
From:         Deborah Marte 
Subject:      Re: destroying vocals

Hi Trent:

Depending on the kind of set-up you have, you could achieve some
"natural" distortion.  You could try turning the gain up so high that the
microphone itself causes the distortion. Then you could process the sound
with some heavy handed reverb, or delay...

Just an idea!

Deborah

------------------------------
Date:         Mon, 19 Sep 1994 01:01:04 18000
From:         Phil Gelb 
Subject:      Re: destroying vocals

>
> Are you looking for distortion in the guitar-hero sense or something more
> twisted?  I'm about to spend several days with a Lexicon Vortex.  I
> won't be processing vocals with it since my singing voice is plenty
> distorted and offensive without electronic processing of any kind.
> I will be using it with an Akai EWI and a soprano sax (hoping it
> will sound like Jane Ira Bloom in a bar fight).  If it sounds half
> as weird as some of its patch names, I'll probably keep it (what
> does BLEEN stand for, anyway?  Bleeding spleen?).  If anything
> interesting happens, I'll post.
>
> brian good
> nasa lerc
i have read about the Vortex but have not had a chacne to use one.  I
would like to paly my shakuhachi with one.  Please tell me how it
works with the soprano.  How bout trying for Steve Lacy ina duckfight?
Phil
>

--

------------------------------
Date:         Mon, 19 Sep 1994 09:09:09 -0400
From:         "Keith C. Perry" 
Subject:      adding distortion to vocals

>     I need a processor to apply to my vocals.  The problem is, I want
> to use distortion.  Most good vocal processors do not have any distortion
> and most processors that have distortion are for guitars...


I don't know how much this will help but all this talk about distortion on
vocal got me curious so I powered up the EMP-700 processor and started
programming...

Then I realized that I actually had someone in the studio who laided down
some vocal track with either distortion or overdrive- I can't seem to
remember which.  The point I know I've done it before on the EMP-700 and to
the best of knowledge and memory, all it talks is a little programming.  I
hear what your saying about the fact that most distortion is made for
guitar but it would seem to me with a little parameter "tweaking" (my
favorite word) you should be able to get the affected frequency range in
the "vocal band" (my term).  I'll keep playing around and see what I come
up with and then I'll post it to the net.  I don't sing so I'll have to
call someone in to try it for me when I get it done.


===+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+===
Keith C. Perry 800-836-4599                   /\ "To be or not to be...
Floor Supervisor / Senior Consultant          \/     THAT AIN'T A QUESTION"
Drexel University Office of Computing Services--|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
...

------------------------------
Date:         Mon, 19 Sep 1994 06:57:24 -0700
From:         atomic city 
Subject:      Re: destroying vocals

Phil Gelb jotteth....
>
>i have read about the Vortex but have not had a chacne to use one.  I
>would like to paly my shakuhachi with one.  Please tell me how it
>works with the soprano.  How bout trying for Steve Lacy ina duckfight?

Phil, remember where we live. What are the odds of there ever being a
Vortex within a hundred miles of here that isn't in someone's private
collection? I still haven't figured out where you got your JamMan.
Mail order? Main Street Music aren't cool enough to have them in
stock....they can't even get me the Ultimate Support pieces I asked
for three weeks ago. No offense, but I really miss Pittsburgh. :(

Anyway, I hope that OMS is behaving itself now, and that MAX doesn't
bruise your cranium too badly. Let me know how some of those other
WavePool sounds for the uWave sound, too. Suzanne sez thanx for the
Belgian beer. I have to have you over for a visit sometime soon so you
can meet Kevin Brislin. Kevin has a small MIDI studio and has a very
good CD of his own stuff out right now; the three of us should talk
sometime, just for grins. We can talk about the local emusic scene.
(actually, come to think of it, if I invited Ray Brooks over, we'd BE
the local emusic scene! ;)

take it light

mike

--
mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * atomic@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Oh drat, these computers are so naughty and so complex,
 I could just PINCH them."                                  (m. t. martian)

------------------------------
Date:         Mon, 19 Sep 1994 11:14:12 EDT
From:         "william.b.fox" 
Subject:      Re: destroying vocals

In response to a post by Phil Gelb, Metlay jotteth....

> Phil, remember where we live. What are the odds of there ever being a
> Vortex within a hundred miles of here that isn't in someone's private
> collection? I still haven't figured out where you got your JamMan.
> ...  No offense, but I really miss Pittsburgh. :(

And Ohio State (my alma mater) kicked their butt on Saturday!  :-)
But seriously, it's amazing the sacrifices we make in order to be
gainfully employed.  Compromises in location and time away from loved ones
and activities (music) spring to mind.

Phil, if you subscribe to synth-l, please change channels and tell me
about your JamMan.  (Or private email will do if you aren't on synth-l.)
I think I heard one in action at the Bethlehem Musikfest late last month.
But I couldn't get close enough to verify.  Two people put down layers
and layers of vocal and guitar parts in real time - neat fun!
*OBLIGATORY EMUSIC CONTENT* The overdubs were mostly built up in thirds.
Occasionally, a counterpoint was offered.  Then it, in turn, was layered
with lines a third apart.

Bill Fox        wbf@aloft.att.com

------------------------------
Date:         Tue, 20 Sep 1994 10:46:46 +0100
From:         Nick Rothwell 
Subject:      Re: destroying vocals

Shakuhachi through a Lexicon Vortex?

Well, that's my mind blown. Anyone else?


    Nick Rothwell     CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance     nick@cassiel.com

------------------------------
Date:         Tue, 20 Sep 1994 11:35:01 -0700
From:         atomic city 
Subject:      Re: destroying vocals

Nick Rothwell jotteth....
>
>Shakuhachi through a Lexicon Vortex?
>
>Well, that's my mind blown. Anyone else?

oh, me me mememe. And if I can keep him from figuring out that I'm a
hack, maybe we can work together on an installation for somewhere in
this (ahem) city sometime in the coming year. No Vortex yet, but as of
right now, the JamMan is enough fun....:)

Mike ("I know Phil Gelb!") Metlay

--
mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * atomic@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You probably never thought of Bing Crosby as an electronic musician....
Some of you may have never thought of Bing Crosby as a musician."(m. simon)

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End of the EMUSIC-L Digest
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